Comments

• tomp

  October 27

  I agree completely about the value of developing skill at note writing. I have sometimes referred to these skills as "cardcraft". I also extend the idea to the title of a note. A title can serve several purposes: they should work well in search, in scanning, and in visualizing a neighborhood. Crafting a good title isn't automatic; it takes thought.
• Sascha

  October 28

  @tomp said:
  Crafting a good title isn't automatic; it takes thought.

  100% agree.

  I am a Zettler
• tomp

  October 28

  I just came across this post, which in a very Zettelkasten-like manner connects a little indirectly with the theme of this thread -

  https://www.junkcharts.com/abstractions-in-data-viz/

  From the post:

  The paper is called "The Ladder of Abstraction in Statistical Graphics" (American Scientist).

  It concerns a topic that is under-researched. How should we compose a visual story that utilizes a sequence of charts? This goal differs from the objective of how we compose a single chart that tells the entire story.
• notetaker

  October 30

  Do you write by recalling what you read without referring to the book? This seems to be what Make It Stick says the best way to learn even if it's difficult
• harr

  October 31 edited October 31

  @notetaker said:
  Do you write by recalling what you read without referring to the book? This seems to be what Make It Stick says the best way to learn even if it's difficult.

  The post states that "[n]ote-writing as a standalone practice is valuable because it trains your mind and helps you consistently generate ideas." Here, the goal is not to recall what you have read but to "create knowledge".

  Make it stick has a different goal—learning how to learn. In chapter 4 the book mentions “write to learn” as a "form of reflection that is gaining currency in classroom settings".

  William Zinsser, who also said that "writing is thinking on paper" and thus a skill that everyone can learn, has written a book called Writing to Learn (1988). Zinsser points to the Writing across the curriculum (WAC) trend in the US. The Wikipedia article Writing across the curriculum traces that movement back to the late 19th century. This movement teaches writing as a skill for everybody. Today you'll find programs like WAC at many US universities. Using writing for active recall of what you have read makes sense in this environment.

  The tools in the post have other goals and are inspired by other traditions.
• Sascha

  November 3

  @notetaker said:
  Do you write by recalling what you read without referring to the book? This seems to be what Make It Stick says the best way to learn even if it's difficult

  I am not making this part of the workflow. However, there are repetitions of active recall in the workflow because permanently looking at the book or your other notes gets in the way of writing notes.

  It is similar to the following language learning workflow: There is a phase in which you want to look up words often when you read or write in a foreign language. But you might get frustrated to look up the same word for a third time. The next time avoiding the frustration might provide enough motivation to rely more on recall.

  When processing a book, looking at the same section for the 10th time gets more annoying to rely on recall and then check afterwards whether you made a mistake. The same is true for linking to other notes. To keep my flow, I don't look at the note I want to link to, but rely on my recall and later check whether I correctly saw a connection.

  If you want to practice recall, the best time is when you read. For example: Finish a chapter, close the book and write a short summary or an opinion essay about the chapter. It can also be done in one's mind, but this takes more practice and is a separate skill that needs to be learned first. (Just thinking for a long time about one issue is what the old scholars did like Darwin, Nietzsche, etc. - typically while walking)

  @harr said:

  @notetaker said:
  Do you write by recalling what you read without referring to the book? This seems to be what Make It Stick says the best way to learn even if it's difficult.

  The post states that "[n]ote-writing as a standalone practice is valuable because it trains your mind and helps you consistently generate ideas." Here, the goal is not to recall what you have read but to "create knowledge".

  This is a false contradiction. Recall is part of building knowledge. The goal might not be recall, but recall is part of the whole process.

  I am a Zettler
• harr

  November 4 edited November 4

  @Sascha said:
  (Just thinking for a long time about one issue is what the old scholars did like Darwin, Nietzsche, etc. - typically while walking)

  A historical claim, nice! :-)

  Can you recommend sources that support your claim that "[j]ust thinking for a long time about one issue" is what Darwin and Nietzsche did?

  And would you mind clarifying, what kind of thinking you assume they did?

  • Did they daydream and let their thoughts wander?
  • Did they focus on one question and forced themselves with willpower to stay on topic?
  • Did they do something else?

  @Sascha said:
  This is a false contradiction.

  As far as I can tell, knowledge creation and knowledge building with The Zettelkasten Method refers to knowledge in a box. Your goal of recall is to remove an obstacle that might get "in the way of writing notes".

  Whereas Make it stick refers to knowledge in one's head. The book teaches learning. What do the authors mean by learning? Chapter 1 (emphasis added): "we mean acquiring knowledge and skills and having them readily available from memory so you can make sense of future problems and opportunities."

  Different goals. :-)
• tomp

  November 4

  @harr said:

  @Sascha said:
  (Just thinking for a long time about one issue is what the old scholars did like Darwin, Nietzsche, etc. - typically while walking)

  ...
  And would you mind clarifying, what kind of thinking you assume they did?

  • Did they daydream and let their thoughts wander?
  • Did they focus on one question and forced themselves with willpower to stay on topic?
  • Did they do something else?

  Yes, yes, and yes, I expect.
• notetaker

  5:51AM

  @Sascha said:

  @notetaker said:
  Do you write by recalling what you read without referring to the book? This seems to be what Make It Stick says the best way to learn even if it's difficult

  I am not making this part of the workflow. However, there are repetitions of active recall in the workflow because permanently looking at the book or your other notes gets in the way of writing notes.

  It is similar to the following language learning workflow: There is a phase in which you want to look up words often when you read or write in a foreign language. But you might get frustrated to look up the same word for a third time. The next time avoiding the frustration might provide enough motivation to rely more on recall.

  When processing a book, looking at the same section for the 10th time gets more annoying to rely on recall and then check afterwards whether you made a mistake. The same is true for linking to other notes. To keep my flow, I don't look at the note I want to link to, but rely on my recall and later check whether I correctly saw a connection.

  If you want to practice recall, the best time is when you read. For example: Finish a chapter, close the book and write a short summary or an opinion essay about the chapter. It can also be done in one's mind, but this takes more practice and is a separate skill that needs to be learned first. (Just thinking for a long time about one issue is what the old scholars did like Darwin, Nietzsche, etc. - typically while walking)

  @harr said:

  @notetaker said:
  Do you write by recalling what you read without referring to the book? This seems to be what Make It Stick says the best way to learn even if it's difficult.

  The post states that "[n]ote-writing as a standalone practice is valuable because it trains your mind and helps you consistently generate ideas." Here, the goal is not to recall what you have read but to "create knowledge".

  This is a false contradiction. Recall is part of building knowledge. The goal might not be recall, but recall is part of the whole process.

  Dude you are amazing