@FernandoNobel said:
Software development is a good example. When you build software, it's important to do the struggle to actually finish each block properly.
What you can also learn from software development, is that "block" and "finish" are a matter of definition. What features should a block have? What are your quality criteria? How do you know it's finished? How do you know it's good enough? How do you know the difference to harmful perfectionism?
If a "pointer" is in fact just a task, then it can and should be managed as such. Why not capture it in some kind of bug tracking system? And why not use the zettelkasten itself as such a tool to track such tasks? (I've been doing this for a while. I mark open ends and possible tasks in my ZK with tags. I fix them as needed. It turned out that I can live with a huge backlog—as long as it is properly managed.)
@FernandoNobel said:
You can't build a wall with half-baked bricks. Every time you choose not to properly finish a piece of work, you're making things harder for your future self.
You could also choose a different metaphor. :-) You can cultivate a digital garden with the tiniest seeds and sprouts.
And if you have a more holistic approach to knowledge and think of notes primarily as nodes in a complex system of relations instead of discrete entities of knowledge (possibly clustered as molecules), then a lowly "pointer" becomes a valuable connection. (In my experience even empty notes can be valuable, simply by being nodes in the network.)
What one person might consider "ineffective", might be effective for another, because they have other priorities in their note-making practice.
Tasks, todo's, are noise in a Zettelkasten -- and don't even belong into a permanent knowledge storage (which a Zettelkasten isn't, it's not just a storage).
We discussed this aplenty over the decades here.
You do you, and you can lump together what you want and use 1 app for everything (hello Emacs), but that doesn't change that tasks aren't the atoms in the Zettelkasten universe.
@harr said:
I appreciate that you draw a clear line.
This is how I'd rephrase it in my own words:
Sascha's and @ctietze's concept of "Zettelkasten" explicitly excludes tasks and todos.
Tasks and todos are not valid atoms in a "Zettelkasten".
A note-taking system that contains tasks and todos is not a "Zettelkasten".
I hope this is correct.
Alternatively, a note-taking system that contains tasks and todos could be a Zettelkasten with additional capabilities. A superset, not a disjunction.
More generally, Zettelkasten with the capital "Z", meaning systems inspired by Luhmann's, are about thoughts and thinking. Tasks and todos are about execution, plans, and action. Those are different kinds of things (yes, with some overlap) so a system specialized for handling the latter effectively can be expected to be different.
@tomp said:
Those are different kinds of things (yes, with some overlap) so a system specialized for handling the latter effectively can be expected to be different.
I'm talking about the "overlap". :-)
David Allen talks in his 2001 book Getting Things Done about "incubation tools" for stuff that is not "actionable". This stuff doesn't require you to perform an action.
One tool Allen recommends is a "Someday/Maybe list". I use my digital zettelkasten as a Someday/Maybe list for some zettelkasten-related potential next actions/projects.
The technique is simple. I add tags right were I might "maybe" continue "someday" in the future. I have a recurring reminder in my todo app, that prompts me to search my zettelkasten for those tags.
Is this approach compatible with "Zettelkasten with the capital 'Z'"? I don't know. I'll leave it to others to decide.
@tomp said:
Those are different kinds of things (yes, with some overlap) so a system specialized for handling the latter effectively can be expected to be different.
I'm talking about the "overlap". :-)
David Allen talks in his 2001 book Getting Things Done about "incubation tools" for stuff that is not "actionable". This stuff doesn't require you to perform an action.
One tool Allen recommends is a "Someday/Maybe list". I use my digital zettelkasten as a Someday/Maybe list for some zettelkasten-related potential next actions/projects.
The technique is simple. I add tags right were I might "maybe" continue "someday" in the future. I have a recurring reminder in my todo app, that prompts me to search my zettelkasten for those tags.
Is this approach compatible with "Zettelkasten with the capital 'Z'"? I don't know. I'll leave it to others to decide.
I think they are compatible. The execution system is your todo app, which is specialized for different uses than your ZK. The ideas you might develop some day are, after all, thoughts or topics, even if they have not been fully processed yet. As such, I view them as fit for inclusion in a ZK.
I too have provisional areas where I put such notes. I let them link to other z-cards, but I don't let other z-cards link to them. So I can nuke any or all of them without disruption to the system. My search system clusters the results in a way that I know at a glance if a hit is one of these provisional z-cards.
Comments
What you can also learn from software development, is that "block" and "finish" are a matter of definition. What features should a block have? What are your quality criteria? How do you know it's finished? How do you know it's good enough? How do you know the difference to harmful perfectionism?
If a "pointer" is in fact just a task, then it can and should be managed as such. Why not capture it in some kind of bug tracking system? And why not use the zettelkasten itself as such a tool to track such tasks? (I've been doing this for a while. I mark open ends and possible tasks in my ZK with tags. I fix them as needed. It turned out that I can live with a huge backlog—as long as it is properly managed.)
You could also choose a different metaphor. :-) You can cultivate a digital garden with the tiniest seeds and sprouts.
And if you have a more holistic approach to knowledge and think of notes primarily as nodes in a complex system of relations instead of discrete entities of knowledge (possibly clustered as molecules), then a lowly "pointer" becomes a valuable connection. (In my experience even empty notes can be valuable, simply by being nodes in the network.)
What one person might consider "ineffective", might be effective for another, because they have other priorities in their note-making practice.
Tasks, todo's, are noise in a Zettelkasten -- and don't even belong into a permanent knowledge storage (which a Zettelkasten isn't, it's not just a storage).
We discussed this aplenty over the decades here.
You do you, and you can lump together what you want and use 1 app for everything (hello Emacs), but that doesn't change that tasks aren't the atoms in the Zettelkasten universe.
Author at Zettelkasten.de • https://christiantietze.de/
I appreciate that you draw a clear line.
This is how I'd rephrase it in my own words:
I hope this is correct.
No, it isn't.
I have plenty todos in my Zettelkasten.
Christian was reacting to this specific quote, I guess:
This imposes a lot of downsides.
I am a Zettler
Alternatively, a note-taking system that contains tasks and todos could be a Zettelkasten with additional capabilities. A superset, not a disjunction.
More generally, Zettelkasten with the capital "Z", meaning systems inspired by Luhmann's, are about thoughts and thinking. Tasks and todos are about execution, plans, and action. Those are different kinds of things (yes, with some overlap) so a system specialized for handling the latter effectively can be expected to be different.
I'm talking about the "overlap". :-)
David Allen talks in his 2001 book Getting Things Done about "incubation tools" for stuff that is not "actionable". This stuff doesn't require you to perform an action.
One tool Allen recommends is a "Someday/Maybe list". I use my digital zettelkasten as a Someday/Maybe list for some zettelkasten-related potential next actions/projects.
The technique is simple. I add tags right were I might "maybe" continue "someday" in the future. I have a recurring reminder in my todo app, that prompts me to search my zettelkasten for those tags.
Is this approach compatible with "Zettelkasten with the capital 'Z'"? I don't know. I'll leave it to others to decide.
I think they are compatible. The execution system is your todo app, which is specialized for different uses than your ZK. The ideas you might develop some day are, after all, thoughts or topics, even if they have not been fully processed yet. As such, I view them as fit for inclusion in a ZK.
I too have provisional areas where I put such notes. I let them link to other z-cards, but I don't let other z-cards link to them. So I can nuke any or all of them without disruption to the system. My search system clusters the results in a way that I know at a glance if a hit is one of these provisional z-cards.