Bib notes from eBook sources.

Perry_Clayton · December 2022

Hello all,

How do you take manual bib notes when reading from an ebook that doesn't have page numbers? My ebook reader does have what I guess you could call "screen numbers", but those change if I change the font size. How do you reference a particular location in an eBook when page numbers are not available to you?

Will · December 2022

I wouldn't say I like this problem either. The way I've resolved this is multifold.

If I'm reading for my knowledge enhancement, I use the page or location number the reader gives, not worrying about super accuracy as long as the reference is captured. If I need to look up an exact reference in the future, because it is an ebook with full-text search and it will remember highlights, it's easy to find any reference again. The full-text search works great when a small quote snippet is captured in the note. If I require a more accurate citation because of publication, I upgrade to step 2.
For more demanding situations like published essays, coursework, etc., I approach the actual page number problem more seriously. In the past, I sometimes would get a copy of the physical book for interlibrary loan and spend a half hour reconciling page numbers only after refactoring and editing the parts requiring citations, which would be fewer than my original notes. Now I've had great success (although, not 100%) with the technique that Cal Newport describes. This YouTube starts a minute before he reveals the method of using Google Books.

@boxcariii, over at Cal Newport on Zettelkasten and the Barbell Method to Reading — Zettelkasten Forum pointed us to a Cal Newport video where, if you hung out till the end. He lets slip an insider tip from the New Yorker editors.

Perry_Clayton · December 2022

@Will

Thank you for your response! Unfortunately, kindle is not the app I'm using. (I'm using ReadEra on my android phone.) Perhaps there's a way to import ePubs into kindle that I haven't discovered yet. (As an aside, I'm not much of a highlighter anyway. I've never found it very effective.)

What I really wanted to do was take manual notes (on the reverse of a 4x6 bib card in the "on page x it says y" format). I was hoping for some way to reference the particular location in the ebook, without resorting to information that I fear is subject to change, and I couldn't think of a way to do it.

I very much get what you're saying about simply referring to the page number in my app, but my fear is that changing font sizes or changing devices will render those references incorrect. (A wrong location is probably worse than no location at all).

Obviously gaining access to a print copy eliminates the problem. I live in a very rural area and my local library is, shall way say, not extensive.

Disclaimer I'm just now starting zettelkasten and have a great deal of settling in to do. Perhaps starting with an eBook wasn't the best choice.

Will · December 2022

@Perry_Clayton I don't use a kindle either. If you look closely at what Cal says about Google Books, you will find your answer. Ignore what he says about the Amazon thing-a-ma-bob. The tidbit he shares is that any bit of text can be plotted to the exact page in the printed book with Google Books.

In the screenshot below, I'm searching for the quote "quanta of light" in the book - Rovelli, Carlo, et al. Helgoland: Making Sense of the Quantum Revolution. 2021. I read this on an e-reader, but Google Books searches the scanned physical book. Please be aware that the page numbers Google is reporting at the physical page numbers and only might change from one print addition to another. Be sure you are citing the correct addition. Google provides enough text, so I can be sure I'm citing the correct page.

Perhaps there's a way to import ePubs into kindle that I haven't discovered yet. (As an aside, I'm not much of a highlighter anyway. I've never found it very effective.)

calibre - E-book management can convert epub to whatever you might want.

(A wrong location is probably worse than no location at all).

I'm not sure.

Obviously gaining access to a print copy eliminates the problem. I live in a very rural area and my local library is, shall way say, not extensive.

My local library in Troy, Idaho population of 735, can, on request, get books for free from all over the country and some foreign countries as well through its Interlibrary Loan program.

Perry_Clayton · December 2022

@Will

Thanks again Will. These are all excellent tidbits. I was able to play around with google book search and get results very similar to yours. Alas, the book I'm looking at has no preview.

Still, this will be a great fall back for future reference... err, um, so to speak.

I just downloaded calibre and will be playing with it later today, and I'll also be inquring at my local library about there interlibrary loan program.

I also found the following tidbit on the APA Style Blog

In-Text Citations

For in-text citations of paraphrased material, provide the author and date, as for any APA Style >reference. To cite a direct quotation, also provide page numbers if the e-book has page numbers. >If there are no page numbers, you can include any of the following in the text to cite the >quotation (see section 6.05 of the Publication Manual, pp. 171–172):

a paragraph number, if provided; alternatively, you can count paragraphs down from the beginning of the document;

an overarching heading plus a paragraph number within that section; or

an abbreviated heading (or the first few words of the heading) in quotation marks, in cases in which the heading is too unwieldy to cite in full.

Will · December 2022

I use the MLA citation style because my professors require it. Why is you use the APA style for citations? MLA and the latest Chicago style guides suggest using chapter or section headings where page numbers are unavailable. They don't address what to do if page numbers are not dependable, as in our situation. But I'm going with the chapter reference advice.

I don't think it is wholly the fault of the e-reader app that the page numbers change with the font size. I think it is a feature of the file provided by the publishers. Some are page aware, and some files are not. Some e-readers handle some page-aware files great, and some not so great. There is little incentive to make any standard, to my knowledge. I could be wrong.

Chicago style

MLA style

Perry_Clayton · December 2022

@Will said:
Why is you use the APA style for citations?

I is not an academic. I'm just learning zettelkasten, but not because I'm a writer or have any specific publication goals. It's for my own edification. The important thing for me is to be able to get back to the source of the note.

That said, I would rather use the preferred citation method. So, if that's Chicago, then I'm happy to go with Chicago.

I don't think it is wholly the fault of the e-reader app that the page numbers change with the font size.

Oh, I'm not on any crusade to criticize e-reader apps. I apologize if I gave that impression. I'm just concerned about the ability to revisit my sources for old notes when necessary.

Thanks again, Will, for your helpful comments.

Perry_Clayton · December 2022

@Will As an aside, I'd like to mention to you that I've enjoyed your comments as I've explored this site.

ctietze · January 2023

Initially, I wanted to suggest to narrow it down to the smallest unit you have available -- if not pages, then sections; if not sections, then chapters. It's the best you can do, really. (And less wonky than "ebook page X at 18pt 'Times' font on a 7 inch device", good luck replicating that )

But I'm glad that citation style manuals have been updated in the past decade(s) and actually include tips on this. That's great!

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