Cal Newport vs Zettelkasten – SAD! (Clickbait) • Zettelkasten Method

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Cal Newport vs Zettelkasten – SAD! (Clickbait) • Zettelkasten Method

Cal Newport thinks the Zettelkasten method is complicated and overrated. This is wrong.

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Marcus

I really enjoyed reading this new article and felt that I immediately developed an even deeper understanding of the Zettelkasten and the benefits. Thanks Sascha! I'm looking forward to your book.

iylock

I was curious about Cal Newport's opinion on this article, so I just emailed him.

chrisaldrich

The difference between what you work out using the Zettelkasten and the memory palace technique is that the memory palace is a pure memory technique. It uses meaningless connections [emphasis added] and the way the brain works to gain access to information. For example, if I mentally write the date Rome was founded with the mnemonic “BC 753 Rome came to be” as a number on an egg in the kitchen fridge, the only reason for this link between the egg in the kitchen fridge of my memory palace and the year Rome was founded is that I can remember this number.

Certainly not an attack against him, but I feel as if Sascha is making an analogistic reference to areas of mnemonics he's heard about, but hasn't actively practiced. As a result, some may come away with a misunderstanding of these practices. Even worse, they may be dissuaded from combining a more specific set of mnemonic practices with their zettelkasten practice which can provide them with even stronger memories of the ideas hiding within their zettelkasten.

There is a mistaken conflation of two different mnemonic techniques being described here. The memory palace portion associates information with well known locations which leverages our brains' ability to more easily remember places and things in them with relation to each other. There is nothing of meaningless connections here. The method works precisely because meaning is created and attributed to the association. It becomes a thing in a specific well known place to the user which provides the necessary association for our memory.

The second mnemonic technique at play is the separate, unmentioned, and misconstrued Major System (or possibly the related Person-Action-Object method) which associates the number with a visualizable object. While there is a seeming meaningless connection here, the underlying connection is all about meaning by design. The number is "translated" from something harder to remember into an object which is far easier to remember. This initial translation is more direct than one from a word in one language to another because it can be logically generated every time and thus gives a specific meaning to an otherwise more-difficult-to-remember number. As part of the practice this object is then given additional attributes (size, smell, taste, touch, etc., or ridiculous proportion or attributes like extreme violence or relationships to sex) which serve to make it even more memorable. Sascha seems break this more standard mnemonic practice by simply writing his number on the egg in the refrigerator rather than associate 753 with a more memorable object like a "golem" which might be incubating inside of my precious egg. As a result, the egg and 753 association IS meaningless to him, and I would posit will be incredibly more difficult for him to remember tomorrow much less next month. If we make the translation of 753 more visible in Sascha's process, we're more likely to see the meaning and the benefit of the mnemonic. (I can only guess that Sascha doesn't practice these techniques, so won't fault him for missing some steps, particularly given the ways in which the memory palace is viewed in the zeitgeist.)

To say that the number and the golem (here, the object which 753 was translated to—the Major System mnemonic portion) have no association is akin to saying that "zettlekasten" has no associated meaning to the words "slip box." In both translations the words/numbers are exactly the same thing. The second mnemonic is associating the golem to the egg in the refrigerator (the memory palace portion). I suspect that if you've been following along and imagining Andy Serkis gestating inside of an egg to become Golem who will go on to fight in the Roman Coliseum in your refrigerator, you're going to see Golem every time you reach for an egg in your refrigerator. Now if you've spent the ten minutes to learn the Major System to do the reverse translation, you'll think about the founding date of Rome every time you go to make an omelette. And if you haven't, then you'll just imagine the most pitiful gladiator loosing in the arena against a vicious tiger.

Naturally one can associate all their thoughts in their ZK to both the associated numbers and their home, work, or neighborhood environments so that they can mentally take their (analog or digital) zettlekasten with them anywhere they go. This is akin to what Thomas Aquinus and Raymond Llull were doing with their "knowledge management systems", though theirs may have had slightly simpler forms. Llull actually created a system which allowed him to more easily meditate on his stored memories and juxtapose them to create new ideas.

For the beginners in these areas who'd like to know more, I recommend the following as a good starting place:
Kelly, Lynne. Memory Craft: Improve Your Memory Using the Most Powerful Methods from around the World. Pegasus Books, 2019.

Sascha

@chrisaldrich said:

The difference between what you work out using the Zettelkasten and the memory palace technique is that the memory palace is a pure memory technique. It uses meaningless connections [emphasis added] and the way the brain works to gain access to information. For example, if I mentally write the date Rome was founded with the mnemonic “BC 753 Rome came to be” as a number on an egg in the kitchen fridge, the only reason for this link between the egg in the kitchen fridge of my memory palace and the year Rome was founded is that I can remember this number.

Certainly not an attack against him, but I feel as if Sascha is making an analogistic reference to areas of mnemonics he's heard about, but hasn't actively practiced.

You can address me directly.

You made a wrong assumption. I have created a memory palace of my own and maintained it for a couple of months. I did it for the both have first-hand experience and to test if it aids to my practice.

As a result, some may come away with a misunderstanding of these practices. Even worse, they may be dissuaded from combining a more specific set of mnemonic practices with their zettelkasten practice which can provide them with even stronger memories of the ideas hiding within their zettelkasten.

There is a mistaken conflation of two different mnemonic techniques being described here. The memory palace portion associates information with well known locations which leverages our brains' ability to more easily remember places and things in them with relation to each other.

Yes, however, in practice you benefit with plenty of different ways on how you place the items in your memory palace. I am not conflating two different techniques, but present a specific use case.

There is nothing of meaningless connections here. The method works precisely because meaning is created and attributed to the association. It becomes a thing in a specific well known place to the user which provides the necessary association for our memory.

The second mnemonic technique at play is the separate, unmentioned, and misconstrued Major System (or possibly the related Person-Action-Object method) which associates the number with a visualizable object. While there is a seeming meaningless connection here, the underlying connection is all about meaning by design. The number is "translated" from something harder to remember into an object which is far easier to remember. This initial translation is more direct than one from a word in one language to another because it can be logically generated every time and thus gives a specific meaning to an otherwise more-difficult-to-remember number. As part of the practice this object is then given additional attributes (size, smell, taste, touch, etc., or ridiculous proportion or attributes like extreme violence or relationships to sex) which serve to make it even more memorable. Sascha seems break this more standard mnemonic practice by simply writing his number on the egg in the refrigerator rather than associate 753 with a more memorable object like a "golem" which might be incubating inside of my precious egg.

In German, we say "7, 5, 3, Rom kroch aus dem EI". A rough translation is "[...] Rome crawled out of the egg." It is not random, and it is not the complete picture.

As a result, the egg and 753 association IS meaningless to him, and I would posit will be incredibly more difficult for him to remember tomorrow much less next month. If we make the translation of 753 more visible in Sascha's process, we're more likely to see the meaning and the benefit of the mnemonic. (I can only guess that Sascha doesn't practice these techniques, so won't fault him for missing some steps, particularly given the ways in which the memory palace is viewed in the zeitgeist.)

The problem here is that you don't deal with how I use the word "meaning" here. The correct way to address this point would be to ask what I mean with the "meaning".

Especially, in the light of what follows, to highlight your point.

To say that the number and the golem (here, the object which 753 was translated to—the Major System mnemonic portion) have no association is akin to saying that "zettlekasten" has no associated meaning to the words "slip box." In both translations the words/numbers are exactly the same thing. The second mnemonic is associating the golem to the egg in the refrigerator (the memory palace portion). I suspect that if you've been following along and imagining Andy Serkis gestating inside of an egg to become Golem who will go on to fight in the Roman Coliseum in your refrigerator, you're going to see Golem every time you reach for an egg in your refrigerator. Now if you've spent the ten minutes to learn the Major System to do the reverse translation, you'll think about the founding date of Rome every time you go to make an omelette. And if you haven't, then you'll just imagine the most pitiful gladiator loosing in the arena against a vicious tiger.

Naturally one can associate all their thoughts in their ZK to both the associated numbers and their home, work, or neighborhood environments so that they can mentally take their (analog or digital) zettlekasten with them anywhere they go. This is akin to what Thomas Aquinus and Raymond Llull were doing with their "knowledge management systems", though theirs may have had slightly simpler forms. Llull actually created a system which allowed him to more easily meditate on his stored memories and juxtapose them to create new ideas.

Those fantasies don't create meaning, the same a schizophrenic doesn't increase the meaning of his life by engaging in over-recognition of patterns.

You might fear for readers to be dissuaded to adopt this practice, I rather fear that people adopt this bloated approach.

A core feature of the Zettelkasten Method with careful and deep processing is that you remember what you processed with a wide context available. This context, this how of remembering, is crucial to what you can do with your mind's content.

Take the founding of Rome as an example. To me, it is a flat image. I tought my superficial knowledge to my cousin's son because of boredom, used Rome as inspiration for world building when I was 10, 14 and in my 20s, read a couple of (simple) books in primary school in the public library and visited two lectures in university about Rome in university. (There is a reason why I can remember the emergence of the image of Rome in my mind like that which has to do with mnemotechniques..)

Now take my old history professor as a counter-example. He was one of the few people that I really admired for the love to his craft. He was a bit choleric which I loved, since it was entertaining to watch during the lectures. However, the richness image of the classical periods was so immense that he would incorporate whatever I threw at him (in part, just to create a bit of outrage, so I could argue for a theoretically valid fringe position, which still would lead us to a completely bizarre perspective) with ease.

All these paths and pathlets in his mind would allow him to absorb almost everything in seconds.

The idea that he would benefit building a memory palace to store knowledge by creating strange images is utterly bizarre.

Here we can circle back: The possibility of benefiting from mnemo techniques is only then real if you never made an effort to access the richness of the knowledge itself.

And to add to this: If you remember the founding year of Rome by walking through your memory palace, what is activated in your brain by this way of pulling the number to your consciousness? Meaningless stuff, idiosyncratic associations, mostly created, just to fulfil this task. This is your how of remembering. Compare it to the how of remembering that is created by a deep processing of the classical time period, by using it to write historical fiction and creating a comparative study of the political system of Rome and Athens.

The difference might not come up if you are asked the isolated question "When was Rome founded?", though the later will already produce a better performance (you will just know instead of walking through your palace to crack an egg for the number).

But when the task is to actually think, think correctly and creatively, the difference will be immense. "753" will tell you something deep in the later case, whenever you wonder your inner mindscape, instead of you telling some schizophrenic† story just to dig up a number.

† I am using the term "schizophrenic" for a specific reason. The schizophrenic person over-enriches his perspective (he will do more than that, but this is the very aspect I am after) while at the same time will suffer from a feeling of meaninglessness (which leads to the negative symptoms of this disorder). A perfect image for the how that a memory palace produces. (No, I don't think that the memory palace gives you mental problems. It is about the pattern)

Mnemo techniques are nice for random facts and things which richness you never accessed. The reason why the Zettelkasten Method makes mnemo techniques, especially the memory palace, redundant is that the way you should process knowledge is identical with accessing the richness of the ideas which leads to you being able to walk your map of reality instead of a fictional place. "Walking" in that case is an oversimplification, but only for the way of remembering produced by deep processing. "Walking" is enough for the memory palace.

There is nothing wrong to use mnemo techniques as one of the many ways to first incorporate information in your mind somehow. But they become completely redundant for anything that you actually processed.

PS: The idea of using mnemo techniques could be seen as an insult to the beauty of the mind, by treating the memory as some kind of repository. "Success" is achieved by mere retrieval. This follows the same pattern as mistaking memorization with learning or bodybuilding to achieve an athletic look.

chrisaldrich

@Sascha thanks for taking a moment for expanding on your mnemonic practice, though I feel like I'm still in the dark about how the date of the founding of Rome is tied to the egg.

I take some of your point, however I feel like you're sidelining some of the mnemonic practices the way that Peter Ramus did in the late 1500s. To each their own I suppose.

ZettelDistraction

The one reference on mnemonic techniques I've found helpful is Robert W. Finkel, The New Brain Booster (Chaion Analytics, 2011), despite the goofy title. I still have to keep rereading it to remember the techniques.

ctietze

@chrisaldrich said:
@Sascha thanks for taking a moment for expanding on your mnemonic practice, though I feel like I'm still in the dark about how the date of the founding of Rome is tied to the egg.

I take some of your point, however I feel like you're sidelining some of the mnemonic practices the way that Peter Ramus did in the late 1500s. To each their own I suppose.

I believe nobody pointed this out:

"three" and "egg", in German, rhyme: 3="drei", 🥚="Ei"

(like "kneel" and "eel" would in English, where the latter is the suffix of the former)

Listen to the first 5 seconds of this video:

Sascha

@ctietze said:
I believe nobody pointed this out:

Yes, I did:

In German, we say "7, 5, 3, Rom kroch aus dem EI". A rough translation is "[...] Rome crawled out of the egg."

In my last reply.

I didn't point out the rhyme, but the non-arbitrary nature is shown.