What am I doing wrong or Am I just not the right person for the method?
Hello everyone,
It’s been about two years since I started my Zettelkasten and I’m seriously contemplating getting rid of it/starting anew/trying a different method/I don’t know yet.
First of all, I have a tendency towards collecting. I always have. I always wanted to remember things I learned or experienced. Zettelkasten seemed like a great method to capture them. But I have way too many interests, I am rather impulsive and my instinct is to capture a LOT. I’ve been doing my best to pace myself and be selective, but it’s an uphill battle against my nature.
The other thing is, I don’t find myself going back to my notes much. I usually make notes with the intention to write blog posts about the topics, or implement in my life, or more broadly things I want to remember when making decisions etc. But I find myself blogging very little, writing notes instead, trying to keep up with the influx of information. And I often don’t feel like writing about the things again on the blog, I often feel sort of done with that topic after I wrote my notes.
Plus I feel like I remember most of my notes fairly well. I have a good memory to start with and after writing the notes (first as a fleeting inbox note, then processing again) I have it sort of internalised. Sure there are some facts and numbers there that I do not remember, but they are a minority, I rarely find myself needing them, and I remember the primary source where I got them from anyway.
I would remember my notes less without this intense processing, that’s for sure, but I’m not certain how much less and whether some less labour-intensive, faster notes wouldn’t do the job.
I just feel like ZK triggers my perfectionism, completionism, and collector’s heart, while not meshing that well with my extremely high openness to experience and being interested in everything. I find myself stressed over the amount of stuff in my inbox that needs processing, and while I’ve been able to keep up, it is at the cost of other activities that I actually find more meaningful.
Simply put, I’m not sure I see the benefit of a ZK that would justify the time and effort. At least not the way I’ve been doing it, so it’s obvious I’m doing something wrong.
I feel I need to change something, I’m just not sure what. It might be enough to try to change my mindset and be even more selective about what I capture. Or maybe ZK isn’t the right thing for me and I would work better with something like a commonplace book. I don’t know yet.
I would appreciate any thoughts and input.
Howdy, Stranger!
Comments
@Nori, I feel for you. You are not alone. We are kin of a type. Stressing over some aspect of our notes is ordinary, usual, and to be expected if we take our note-taking seriously. Holding ideas about what makes the perfect note very lightly reduces stress. Focusing on the note that is in front of us minimizes the stress associated with thinking about all our other notes. Paraphrasing that great German philosopher @ctietze, 'It's totally okay if our notes become mere sediment in this lake of possibilities.'
My advice is to lean into your "nature" and relax. The alternative is to fight who you are and rebel against what is. Remember David Allen's idea of mind like water. Meditation will help. Even 10 minutes brings your attention to the present moment.
It's talked about a little, but our connection, comfort, and confidence with our notes grow naturally over time. We have to show up every day and sit in the chair. Changing paths too often rarely gets us anywhere.
Will Simpson
My zettelkasten is for my ideas, not the ideas of others. I don’t want to waste my time tinkering with my ZK; I’d rather dive into the work itself. My peak cognition is behind me. One day soon, I will read my last book, write my last note, eat my last meal, and kiss my sweetie for the last time.
kestrelcreek.com
I could give you the "classic" advice of collect less stuff and focus more on processing, but I try to develop a different point of view.
Maybe I'll write a "strange" answer. Let's see :-)
I see two potential issues. Collecting and zettelkasten purpose.
Don't feel too guilty if you collect :-)
Collecting is an issue whose effects we must be aware of, but it should not be considered a monster to be avoided. We know the collecting fallacy to learn how to manage it, not to avoid at all cost.
Do you have fun on collecting? Let yourself collect stuff.
The only thing, you have to avoid feeling guilty if you don't use everything.
Allow your system make disappear and forget the unprocessed stuff. It's not a problem if you forget it, we all collect more than we process.
Don't turn the thought of the existence of the collector fallacy into an anxiety that destroys you and makes you feel bad.
So, you can collect but allow yourself to forget what you collect without too many regrets.
A similar thing can be said for the other issue I glimpse into your experience. It is a little more complex to explain, but I try.
Maybe you don't feel a clear purpose for your Zettelkasten, so you feel that your Zettelkasten is useless.
Don't force yourself to find a purpose that you don't feel. It's another useless anxiety.
Just revert the search direction.
Ask yourself: what do I like, enjoy, or need to do throughout my life? Are they knowledge-based or do require thinking?
If so, you can create a "root note" into Zettelkasten for each of these intentions. And starting from these roots.
Allow yourself to be very broad.
Don't focus yourself only on pratical and material goals.
Pursuing the things that you enjoy, that entertain you, that make you feel good is as much of a purpose as writing a book.
"I like learning many different things, it's fun for me". So, you can have for your Zettelkasten this purpose. Simply learning new things every day.
Even if you don't write a single article about that, you can take conversations with others, try to answer to questions you meet, and so on.
For making this second aspect more clear, I try to develop my path finding a reason for having a zettelkasten.
At the beginning, I simply tried, with a bit of curiosity. And it was fun and engaging.
Enough to continue and improve.
The first area of knowledge was zettelkasten theory itself. I've discovered for myself the pleasure to develop and improve my ability of zettelkasting. Becoming a proficient starting from zero.
I didn't have the purpose to write something about zettelkasten. I don't have that purpore now.
After realizing that zettelkasten really works, I haven't searched things to do with zettelkasten. A book to write.
I simply ask myself. During my day, I need or want to do these things.
Ok. Can I apply the Zettelkasten on them?
This applies to work, study and free time and entertainment
some of my recent areas:
I can continue with many other example.
The zettelkasten helps me manage each of these points. It really helps.
For me there is the need to get over the misunderstanding that Zettelkasten can only be used to write books or articles or similar things.
Once you understand this, its uses become endless, and many of them are fulfilling and motivate you to use it
This same post, perhaps a little rambling, is the result of what I have gained using my zettelkasten :-)
So, simply try to apply zettelkasten to do what you like.
Once you see that Zettelkasten works for what you like, you will be motivated to use it to do anything.
If you like now to have a spread knowledge in many areas, if this is fun for you, it's fine. Follow your nature. You don't necessary produce something to make sense of the process. Your pleasure is your purpose.
The main advantages of zettelkasten are as follows:
1. You can clearly distinguish whether you really learned something or just thought you learned it.
2. It is easy to recall.
3. Easy to connect. This is because a recall list is given.
4. You can create a thinking system. This is because single notes should be continuously inserted into structure notes.
If you can do all of this on your own, there is no need to do it. I don't think everyone needs Zettelkasten. Many great people achieved their achievements without Zettelkasten.
Zettelkasten is just a tool. (Of course, Zettelkasten is also a method), but it is used by users to obtain better results. If you don't feel it's necessary, you don't have to do it.
If you can dig 5 meter of land a day just by hand, you can do it by hand. However, if you cannot do it by hand, a excavator is the way to go.
If you can easily dig 5 meter with a shovel, you don't really need an excavator. (because excavators take a long time to get used to)
However, if you do not use Zettelkasten, it will take a lot of effort to continue the work you did 20 years ago. It takes time to recall all the memories. Sometimes you may need to reconsider your thoughts. (Commonplace book, etc. are less efficient than Zettelkasten in processing vast amounts.)
I am good at music and MS Excel. But my Zettelkasten does not have this knowledge. No need to put it in. Put it in whenever you need it.
This comes down to what to put in Zettelkasten. You don't need to include everything. If I had to include everything, I would have to include every little bit of knowledge I have learned in my life. That's really unnecessary.
For some knowledge, it is enough to just make a list to make it easier to recall. In other words, it is to create a structure note without zettels.
If you can remember most of the knowledge just by looking at the list, there is no need to make each item on the list into a single zettel. Later, when it is time to connect a certain zettel with that item, you can make that item a zettel at that time. This way, you can reduce the amount as there is less need to make zettel.
In the end, we need standards to create zettel. What doesn't need to be made into zettel? If this standard is established, being swayed by the inbox will decrease.
@Nori , there are lots of good ideas in this post already. I have only a few to support what others have said:
1. I like having a purpose (or several purposes) for my ZK. Those will apply for a while, and then some new ones will appear. It depends on your needs and interests, which also change over time.
2. I am selective in what I put into my ZK. That works for me because then I don't spend much time fussing with it. On average, I probably enter a zettel into my ZK every day, but in fits and spurts. "Zetteling" is just one of many enjoyable activities in my life - not an obsession. But this is just me. You may feel quite differently about this particular item. But if you buy into it, you may want to satisfy your penchant for collecting things using other systems or apps.
3. I like my zettels to have quality - in terms of the information they contain, their sources, and how they are written. But after that, my ZK is just a storehouse of easily accessible information. It is not magically somehow alive. The idea of it being a "brain" just doesn't make sense to me. So I don't expect it to be creative or self-aware, I just want it to reflect the best of my past efforts to capture and connect different concepts, and make them accessible in different ways (in decreasing order of effectiveness for me - tags, connections between zettels, general searches and finally hierarchical systems like indexes and structure notes). Sure - I also like to discover new connections between existing ideas (or to new ideas), but that doesn't make my ZK sentient.
I am in a similar situation and I just stopped zettelkasting.
At some point I realised, that I will just not write anything for publication. Similar to you @Nori, topics are often done in my mind, once a note or two have been recorded. At that point I feel zero motivation to write about them again.
I also realised that I just need a lightweight method to store information. I don't have 10s of thousands of notes, so simple notes without further processing and the file search are good enough for me to find stuff. I do make some links as they come to mind, but that's about it. In case some note becomes important enough, I can always improve it later.
Zettelkasten is not a panacea, it's just the wrong tool for some of us.
My thoughts
A note box reflects the openness and versatility of people who believe in development and the potential of information. Here in the forum alone, there are many people with whom you could have long, in-depth conversations. Even if that is not the direct purpose of a note box, on a meta-level it is a tool that connects people through ideas. If working with the note box leads to connecting communication, it has immense value for me - as a bridge between people and thoughts.
There is a benefit beyond the visible.
The secrets lie in the undergrowth. --> This could be a quote from David Lynch, I don't know, forgive me.
Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I really appreciate that you took the time to answer, I got so much interesting input and food for thought.
After chewing on this for a while, I realised a few things.
The principle of atomic, connected notes still makes perfect sense to me. I remember how much of a eureka moment it was to discover Zettelkasten and realise that there was a way to "organise" my notes.
My problems is that I have been trying too hard to make my Zettelkasten "right". Right now, I am not enjoying working on it, it feels like a chore. I feel like I am feeding a monster. Instead of the Zettelkasten serving me, I am serving the Zettelkasten.
Trying to follow all the principles of a Zettelkasten, I have made something that isn't actually tailored to me.
Atomicity: I have been breaking up thoughts into chunks that are too small. They are just obvious to me and I often don't feel like writing more than the title of the note. Yet I felt I needed to break them down to make them atomic, so that I could write the note that I wanted to write -- an idea that connects several of these. It was too much boring overhead.
Depth of processing: I have been forcing myself to write out idea where a keyword would have been enough, at least for me. I wasn't actually thinking in my Zettelkasten, I was just trying to capture my fully formed thoughts in it.
In my attempts to do this all "right", I even moved my notes from digital to paper about a year ago. It was prompted by a realisation that I was not engaging with my notes enough, that they were "too atomic" and that it felt like a black hole to me, that notes were just disappearing into. In the process of moving to paper, I reduced the amount of my notes from some 500 to about 100, mostly by combining them and tossing the ones that didn't feel relevant anymore. I really enjoyed paper for a while. It was so much more real to me, improved my recall and made it easier to orient myself in it.
But since then, I have started slowly copying everything back to digital, to have a hybrid system. I do everything on paper first, but then copy it over to digital, because I found myself missing the portability and search. Plus the easier navigation of the paper Zettelkasten has sort of disappeared. It is because its topography is changing, as I am inserting new notes in between the old ones, and two notes that I remember being close to each other are not close anymore.
Now there is just too much friction in my system. Linking and back-linking on paper is a pain in the ... neck, copying it to digital doubles the work, and I have still been overexplaining, over-atomizing and trying to make the ZK hold everything, even the (to me) obvious background. It's not fun and I don't have time for this. I have a full-time job (that only feeds about 5% of my notes) and two small kids.
What I mostly got from all of your replies, is that ultimately it should be fun, it should work for me, and it should facilitate connection with others.
I think I need to start treating my Zettelkasten like what it is: just notes. I need to make it serve me and my needs. It should be the place where I do my thinking (because writing is thinking to me), rather than the place where I try to painstakingly capture the thinking that took me less than a second.
I think I need to remove some friction and start breaking some rules. As @Will said:
I might need to write notes that are less atomic, less detailed, I might need to prune more often, etc.
I should probably embrace the philosophy of @ZettelDistraction and see the notes more as a sewer than as some curated collection that is to be kept for posterity
Embrace the mess, accept that most of it is rubbish, let it grow wild.
I need to knock the Zettelkasten off of the pedestal I seem to have put it on. As you said @GeoEng51, it's not a brain. I should not try to recreate in it the full web of thoughts that live in my brain. I should use it to store information. It's just a note-taking method after all. A tool. A good tool, but still just a tool.
Maybe I should even stop calling it a Zettelkasten. @nistude, thank you for your input, very encouraging to see someone in a similar situation, and very cool that you are still hanging around the forum
Thank you, everyone, I feel like I have a much better sense of what could work for me.
There is much secular wisdom in a Biblical statement I should know better, but don't. By someone's works you know them.
That works for "something" as well as "someone". Zettelkasten inspires intellectual analysis of epistemology. That's a good thing, ergo, Zettelkasten can't be all bad.
@Sascha and I, pioneered by Sascha's work on the ZK book and writing here, talk less about notes and more about ideas (in the Platonic sense, and in a sense that naturally fits our German language intuition, but which apparently isn't shared universally). Notes are the vessels, the representations; it's not about organizing notes, really. That's a chore, that can be busywork. It's about thinking, aided by a tool.
For me, that was a powerful shift in communication. Removing the conflation of "note" and the "thought" or impulse and association behind it helped bring the useful part into focus. Sascha stresses this in posts when he writes about creative knowledge work and thinking tools in a toolbox -- and how you're not doing "creative notes work" and "management".
I personally also enjoy typing, and writing, and I'm actually more happy when I feed my Zettelmonster. I don't publish nearly as much on my blog(s) as I write in my Zettelkasten. But I do share self-contained, almost-tutorial-like code snippets and such with fellow programmers from time to time. This is much simpler than sharing topics from "humanities", because these require so much more context. Either way, I might be coming at this from a much more beneficial angle to reap benefit early, because the process is positively reinforcing itself.
Author at Zettelkasten.de • https://christiantietze.de/
Thank you for the reply, @ctietze. I have been following the blog here for a while and I am aware of that distinction between note and idea. However, now I am wondering if I am missing something, or if something didn't quite click for me. How does that knowledge affect how you work with your Zettelkasten? Is it possible to explain or give an example, or is it just too subtle?
I think I have been working with ideas. When I said that ZK is just notes, I was mostly referring to the fact that they are just representations of ideas and they will be necessarily imperfect. For me, when I try to extract an idea from my mind, it usually drags a web of other ideas with it. I think I have been trying to recreate that web outside of my brain, which is very labor-intensive and largely not possible.
Now I am also realizing that doing a hybrid system where I retype everything I wrote by hand is just too much and gives me the worst of both worlds. Which is probably one of the reasons for me wanting to toss my ZK out of the window
I will summarize some points I made for the fearsome @KillerWhale. I had ChatGPT help summarize, introducing some edgeless, flaccid AI-generated prose, most of which I rewrote, but some of its professional, corporate blandness remains. I attempted to correct this with ProWritingAid, which I find works better than Grammarly (slicker and more convenient than ProWritingAid, but its advice is worse and it’s more expensive).
Guidelines for Maintaining a Digital Zettelkasten
Edit Old Notes Before Importing Them
Choose and Stick with a Consistent Note Format
Organize Projects and Tasks
Write Outside Your Zettelkasten
Rewrite and add notes as your understanding changes
Efficient Reference Management with Zotero and Better BibTex
Physical Setup Considerations
I can’t help too much with the Collector’s Fallacy, except to say that one has to distinguish the important from the interesting but unimportant. Think of a modified 2x2 Eisenhower matrix with the rows labeled “important,” and “not important;” and the columns labeled “interesting,” and “not interesting.” These are mutually exclusive categories and won't account for indifferent cases; flip a coin. We encounter the world not through reason at first, but in ways that matter to us. I’m a biological determinist (a free-will denialist). What matters to us isn’t under our control, though seeking information will influence what matters to us in the future. Your working environment has an effect as well.
GitHub. Erdős #2. Problems worthy of attack / prove their worth by hitting back. -- Piet Hein. Alter ego: Erel Dogg (not the first). CC BY-SA 4.0.
@Nori Given your statement, perhaps a commonplace book approach may be better for your use case. It requires less upfront work than a Luhmann-artig zettelkasten and is organized by topic rather than proximity of ideas. This might allow you to leverage what you've collected already (in almost any form, digital or analog), while still allowing you to have space for a more zettelkasten-like approach for a handful of areas of interest for which you might create physical output at a later date. It certainly can't hurt giving it a try for a while.
website | digital slipbox 🗃️🖋️
Thank you, @ZettelDistraction, that is a very insightful guide. I can see one of my biggest problems was seeing the constant flux of my ZK as a bug, not a feature. I shouldn’t be getting frustrated by what is, in essence, learning.
@chrisaldrich I think I might want to give a commonplace book a try, or some combination of it with a ZK.
just write and label. Be careful on metaworking. Establish a ROI KPI that helps you track your endeavour, otherwise you'll end up into a nice rabbit hole preventing you achieve the ultimate goal of your work.
David Delgado Vendrell
www.daviddelgado.cat
It manifests in talking less about notes, for example, and thinking even less in terms of the representation of ideas.
That doesn't sound very useful on its own. It's like this: you can either talk about "sending someone an email", which is a rather high abstraction level, one where we think about the message we want to send; or you talk about protocols like SMTP and IMAP and all the email headers required to assemble an actual email that a mail server understands. The latter is usually not interesting for most people. It's the wrong level of abstraction to talk about sending someone a message.
The textbook example is how you don't need to know how a car works internally, and once you learn to drive, it's very simple activities you can perform half asleep. "I'm driving to New York" is something different than "I move my arm to grab the wheel and ..." etc.
It's like that.
Exaggerated:
A term like "note-making" on the abstraction level of "note" does abstract away the physical manifestation (piece of paper; or the change of current to represent text on your digital computer). But it can also include creating a text file with today's date and an entry about what you ate for breakfast. That does hardly qualify as an idea, insight, or thought.
Author at Zettelkasten.de • https://christiantietze.de/
Pull on this thread a little more: "I usually make notes with the intention to write blog posts about the topics, or implement in my life, or more broadly things I want to remember when making decisions etc."
Need a stronger litmus test for what to include or not. Maybe only include things you will write about "this week" or "this month" for sure.
Thank you, @ctietze, that was a very good explanation and rather eye-opening for me. I don’t think I took the idea far enough before. This will definitely change how I approach my work.