@KillerWhale said:
I've tried this when I was truly committed to test PARA thoroughly ("everybody raves about this, what am I missing?") and found it was really difficult to decide upfront whether something should in in Resources or a Zettel (even when I put the Zettelkasten in Resources). It added a ton of cognitive dissonance and friction when writing. I hope you find your way around that difficulty.
It is actually pretty easy: I have a rough threshold for my Zettelkasten. Only processed ideas and thoughts go in my Zettelkasten. There is no collecting and "putting stuff in". PARA is my system to collect and roughly pre-process if needed.
I have the benefit of having 1.5 decades with a high training volume per week working with my Zettelkasten. Therefore, I can count on my intuition. However, for you especially, it is very easy to learn (at least from my impression of your video).
Collecting and organising information is very different from processing.
Example from my fiction writing: For my fantasy novel, two of the main characters were originally tribe members of the wild people (roughly old Germanic Tribes with a big influence from Native Americans living in areas that are corrupted by a certain demonic presence that moves nature too much on the side of chaos). Then I hade the idea to move their story from the Wilderness (capital-w) to the slums of a city. It makes a lot more sense for the story, I think. But it also allows me to draw way more from my personal experience (especially my own childhood) and it connects to my research for my book Modernity as Sickness.
This is an idea with quite some implicit tasks that I put in my 2nd brain. It is not processed, just received (on a morning run, btw. -> Zone 2 is a blessing for any creator).
@Sascha I am not sure I am an easy learner (but thanks). What you're seeing, I believe, is that almost three decades in this gig have skewed my brain in a curious way: anything, just about anything can be fodder for stories. (Which is why I love the connection-first approach of the Zettelkasten so much.) I never know when a random snippet seen somewhere in the world may end up being reused, remixed and digested later. That actually breaks down any kind of category and isolation of "Resources" Vs. "Projects", because anything is anything and must be anything on the spot. I've realized that's how I've operated now for years on an unconscious level. As the sign I once saw said: "Careful, writer at work, any innocent bystanders will be written into the story." 😄
Really, I'm just a cow processing grass. Moo.
There is, however, processed material indeed and unprocessed material in my system. Things that have been researched only for a scene are left to incubate in an isolated part of the system, making a huge backlog, but I'm fine with it. Only if it arises that it's going be useful more than once will I consider Zetteling that material.
Is "Zone 2" the Areas of PARA? Or another word for your 2nd Brain?
"A writer should write what he has to say and not speak it." - Ernest Hemingway
@KillerWhale said: @Sascha I am not sure I am an easy learner (but thanks). What you're seeing, I believe, is that almost three decades in this gig have skewed my brain in a curious way: anything, just about anything can be fodder for stories. (Which is why I love the connection-first approach of the Zettelkasten so much.) I never know when a random snippet seen somewhere in the world may end up being reused, remixed and digested later. That actually breaks down any kind of category and isolation of "Resources" Vs. "Projects", because anything is anything and must be anything on the spot. I've realized that's how I've operated now for years on an unconscious level. As the sign I once saw said: "Careful, writer at work, any innocent bystanders will be written into the story." 😄
It sounds really familiar, with the exception that I didn't train my brain on fiction but on my personal brand of existential philosophy.
Right now, the trajectory of my system is PA. "R" becomes "stuff" in my case, and I only archive finished products.
Really, I'm just a cow processing grass. Moo.
There is, however, processed material indeed and unprocessed material in my system. Things that have been researched only for a scene are left to incubate in an isolated part of the system, making a huge backlog, but I'm fine with it. Only if it arises that it's going be useful more than once will I consider Zetteling that material.
Is "Zone 2" the Areas of PARA? Or another word for your 2nd Brain?
-> Today, I finished the first draft that includes some of my thinking environments which is part of what I call the "Nootropic Lifestyle". So, it is just a matter of decades until it is through the pipes of me and Christian.
@Sascha R as "stuff". Yes. I can totally see that.
On my end, I am increasingly gravitating towards a continuum of "Labs" ("I thought of this, what the hell does it mean?" – including journaling, captures, Idea Netflix) and "Zettels" (distilled content for future me). The trick is to accept that Labs will probably never be entirely processed. This is fine as long as things are being continually Zettelled. Processing inputs and thoughts will provide value no matter what. Time cannot be stopped, life must be lived, the whole of the world will never be entirely understood.
And I also believe (and see) that the more you process, the more you realize some of your raw unprocessed material gravitates around the same things on your mind, and once the notions have been clarified, most of the raw material can actually be discarded. So the outcome is positive no matter what.
Anyway, if you'd like an additional pair of eyes on that manuscript at some point, I'd love to be a guinea… cow. 😁
"A writer should write what he has to say and not speak it." - Ernest Hemingway
@KillerWhale said: @Sascha R as "stuff". Yes. I can totally see that.
On my end, I am increasingly gravitating towards a continuum of "Labs" ("I thought of this, what the hell does it mean?" – including journaling, captures, Idea Netflix) and "Zettels" (distilled content for future me). The trick is to accept that Labs will probably never be entirely processed. This is fine as long as things are being continually Zettelled. Processing inputs and thoughts will provide value no matter what. Time cannot be stopped, life must be lived, the whole of the world will never be entirely understood.
It sounds somewhat similar to what I do with my PARA-System.
I make just one distinction: I need to add value to something to put it in my Zettelkasten. If I just create a task (e.g. having an idea on how I might process a quote), it will sit in my rumen until it is digestible or I decide to digest it.
And I also believe (and see) that the more you process, the more you realize some of your raw unprocessed material gravitates around the same things on your mind, and once the notions have been clarified, most of the raw material can actually be discarded. So the outcome is positive no matter what.
Can you elaborate? I think I don't understand you properly.
Anyway, if you'd like an additional pair of eyes on that manuscript at some point, I'd love to be a guinea… cow. 😁
If you like, you can be a guinea swine for my nootropic lifestyle theory (basically, biohacking/lifestyle measures to improve cognition and... perhaps, creativity). I am pretty confident in the effects in the realm of non-fiction type work. But I have no experience with creative people.
And I also believe (and see) that the more you process, the more you realize some of your raw unprocessed material gravitates around the same things on your mind, and once the notions have been clarified, most of the raw material can actually be discarded.
I can relate. A bunch of notes can be replaced by a new note about "a little backstory".
This is not necessarily a positive development. There are risks with a huge backlog: circular thoughts, rumination, depression. So take care to keep a positive mood when writing about personal stuff.
@Sascha said:
Things is for simple and daily tasks.
At the moment that's why I'm using Due. I like the lack of a bigger structure for GTD or another complex system. Just a daily nagging reminder that I have to do something that will keep sounding every 5 minutes until I actually do it.
I'll experiment with TaskPaper though. Maybe a good combination for me is TaskPaper + Due.
My apologies for the late answer @Sascha ! The past month disappeared in long-lasting power cuts due to severe Aussie storms and flights going back to Europe.
And I also believe (and see) that the more you process, the more you realize some of your raw unprocessed material gravitates around the same things on your mind, and once the notions have been clarified, most of the raw material can actually be discarded. So the outcome is positive no matter what.
Can you elaborate? I think I don't understand you properly.
Of course. What I've seen in my practice is that my mind keeps mulling the same ideas over and over as it understands there is something important to be understood, but it needs to be clarified. Zettelling those ideas puts them to rest (in that they don't clog my mind anymore, the way the GTD capture frees you in the same way), but also to action, because now they are usable.
For instance, I journal my fiction writing practice looking for insights in storytelling, and I found I kept "stumbling" on the same lessons over and over again, having to relearn them in a way. Properly Zettelling them helps me assimilate them and it frees my mind for the next things to chew on. Resistance is futile.
Anyway, if you'd like an additional pair of eyes on that manuscript at some point, I'd love to be a guinea… cow. 😁
If you like, you can be a guinea swine for my nootropic lifestyle theory (basically, biohacking/lifestyle measures to improve cognition and... perhaps, creativity). I am pretty confident in the effects in the realm of non-fiction type work. But I have no experience with creative people.
Thank you for offering – VERY interested, when the current book is done 😅 Never change a workflow mid-project!
"A writer should write what he has to say and not speak it." - Ernest Hemingway
I'm a freshman at Zettelkasten and your article helps!
I used Zettelkasten as my second brain system and I'm trying to build it up. But after a few months of using it, I think the problem is there's no action at all. All I do is keep notes and transfer them to cards.
I started to combine PARA concept into it. I would initiate projects, such as writing articles or giving a speech or providing training sessions. Put an index for this project in Area, where index may include milestones, checklists or backlinks to my Zettelkasten. I'll move the "index" into the Archive folder.
In other words, my Zettelkasten vault acts as the Area or the Resource folder in PARA system. It works well by now. Please feel free to share opinions so that I can improve it. Thanks.
In other words, my Zettelkasten vault acts as the Area or the Resource folder in PARA system. It works well by now. Please feel free to share opinions so that I can improve it. Thanks.
This is one viable solution. My guess is that you use Obsidian? Obsidian invites you to put everything in it (not only ZK and PARA but also your taskmanagement). I prefer to condition myself to different environments. So, I deliberately keep everything in its own app with its own feel and habits to reduce context overlap. (Similar, that you don't should do anything in your bed other than sleep to condition your bed for sleeping)
Technically, it is not important at all, where you keep your Zettelkasten.
Comments
It is actually pretty easy: I have a rough threshold for my Zettelkasten. Only processed ideas and thoughts go in my Zettelkasten. There is no collecting and "putting stuff in". PARA is my system to collect and roughly pre-process if needed.
I have the benefit of having 1.5 decades with a high training volume per week working with my Zettelkasten. Therefore, I can count on my intuition. However, for you especially, it is very easy to learn (at least from my impression of your video).
Collecting and organising information is very different from processing.
Example from my fiction writing: For my fantasy novel, two of the main characters were originally tribe members of the wild people (roughly old Germanic Tribes with a big influence from Native Americans living in areas that are corrupted by a certain demonic presence that moves nature too much on the side of chaos). Then I hade the idea to move their story from the Wilderness (capital-w) to the slums of a city. It makes a lot more sense for the story, I think. But it also allows me to draw way more from my personal experience (especially my own childhood) and it connects to my research for my book Modernity as Sickness.
This is an idea with quite some implicit tasks that I put in my 2nd brain. It is not processed, just received (on a morning run, btw. -> Zone 2 is a blessing for any creator).
I am a Zettler
@Sascha I am not sure I am an easy learner (but thanks). What you're seeing, I believe, is that almost three decades in this gig have skewed my brain in a curious way: anything, just about anything can be fodder for stories. (Which is why I love the connection-first approach of the Zettelkasten so much.) I never know when a random snippet seen somewhere in the world may end up being reused, remixed and digested later. That actually breaks down any kind of category and isolation of "Resources" Vs. "Projects", because anything is anything and must be anything on the spot. I've realized that's how I've operated now for years on an unconscious level. As the sign I once saw said: "Careful, writer at work, any innocent bystanders will be written into the story." 😄
Really, I'm just a cow processing grass. Moo.
There is, however, processed material indeed and unprocessed material in my system. Things that have been researched only for a scene are left to incubate in an isolated part of the system, making a huge backlog, but I'm fine with it. Only if it arises that it's going be useful more than once will I consider Zetteling that material.
Is "Zone 2" the Areas of PARA? Or another word for your 2nd Brain?
"A writer should write what he has to say and not speak it." - Ernest Hemingway
PKM: Bear + DEVONthink, tasks: OmniFocus, production: Scrivener / Ableton Live.
It sounds really familiar, with the exception that I didn't train my brain on fiction but on my personal brand of existential philosophy.
Right now, the trajectory of my system is PA. "R" becomes "stuff" in my case, and I only archive finished products.
Zone 2 Cardio Training.
(Link)
-> Today, I finished the first draft that includes some of my thinking environments which is part of what I call the "Nootropic Lifestyle". So, it is just a matter of decades until it is through the pipes of me and Christian.
I am a Zettler
@Sascha R as "stuff". Yes. I can totally see that.
On my end, I am increasingly gravitating towards a continuum of "Labs" ("I thought of this, what the hell does it mean?" – including journaling, captures, Idea Netflix) and "Zettels" (distilled content for future me). The trick is to accept that Labs will probably never be entirely processed. This is fine as long as things are being continually Zettelled. Processing inputs and thoughts will provide value no matter what. Time cannot be stopped, life must be lived, the whole of the world will never be entirely understood.
And I also believe (and see) that the more you process, the more you realize some of your raw unprocessed material gravitates around the same things on your mind, and once the notions have been clarified, most of the raw material can actually be discarded. So the outcome is positive no matter what.
Anyway, if you'd like an additional pair of eyes on that manuscript at some point, I'd love to be a guinea… cow. 😁
"A writer should write what he has to say and not speak it." - Ernest Hemingway
PKM: Bear + DEVONthink, tasks: OmniFocus, production: Scrivener / Ableton Live.
It sounds somewhat similar to what I do with my PARA-System.
I make just one distinction: I need to add value to something to put it in my Zettelkasten. If I just create a task (e.g. having an idea on how I might process a quote), it will sit in my rumen until it is digestible or I decide to digest it.
Can you elaborate? I think I don't understand you properly.
If you like, you can be a guinea swine for my nootropic lifestyle theory (basically, biohacking/lifestyle measures to improve cognition and... perhaps, creativity). I am pretty confident in the effects in the realm of non-fiction type work. But I have no experience with creative people.
I am a Zettler
I can relate. A bunch of notes can be replaced by a new note about "a little backstory".
This is not necessarily a positive development. There are risks with a huge backlog: circular thoughts, rumination, depression. So take care to keep a positive mood when writing about personal stuff.
my first Zettel uid: 202008120915
At the moment that's why I'm using Due. I like the lack of a bigger structure for GTD or another complex system. Just a daily nagging reminder that I have to do something that will keep sounding every 5 minutes until I actually do it.
I'll experiment with TaskPaper though. Maybe a good combination for me is TaskPaper + Due.
My apologies for the late answer @Sascha ! The past month disappeared in long-lasting power cuts due to severe Aussie storms and flights going back to Europe.
Of course. What I've seen in my practice is that my mind keeps mulling the same ideas over and over as it understands there is something important to be understood, but it needs to be clarified. Zettelling those ideas puts them to rest (in that they don't clog my mind anymore, the way the GTD capture frees you in the same way), but also to action, because now they are usable.
For instance, I journal my fiction writing practice looking for insights in storytelling, and I found I kept "stumbling" on the same lessons over and over again, having to relearn them in a way. Properly Zettelling them helps me assimilate them and it frees my mind for the next things to chew on. Resistance is futile.
Thank you for offering – VERY interested, when the current book is done 😅 Never change a workflow mid-project!
"A writer should write what he has to say and not speak it." - Ernest Hemingway
PKM: Bear + DEVONthink, tasks: OmniFocus, production: Scrivener / Ableton Live.
@Sascha
I'm a freshman at Zettelkasten and your article helps!
I used Zettelkasten as my second brain system and I'm trying to build it up. But after a few months of using it, I think the problem is there's no action at all. All I do is keep notes and transfer them to cards.
I started to combine PARA concept into it. I would initiate projects, such as writing articles or giving a speech or providing training sessions. Put an index for this project in Area, where index may include milestones, checklists or backlinks to my Zettelkasten. I'll move the "index" into the Archive folder.
In other words, my Zettelkasten vault acts as the Area or the Resource folder in PARA system. It works well by now. Please feel free to share opinions so that I can improve it. Thanks.
This is one viable solution. My guess is that you use Obsidian? Obsidian invites you to put everything in it (not only ZK and PARA but also your taskmanagement). I prefer to condition myself to different environments. So, I deliberately keep everything in its own app with its own feel and habits to reduce context overlap. (Similar, that you don't should do anything in your bed other than sleep to condition your bed for sleeping)
Technically, it is not important at all, where you keep your Zettelkasten.
I am a Zettler