Totaly agree with Scott about Zettelkasten videos with Sanke Ahrens and Obsidian. A lot of "how to begin" and bunch of settings of the software. It would be a good idea to train in analog just to understand the delibarate way of making notes and escape from the collector fallacie.
The cockpit picture for Words is great.
Wax tablets ! Awesome ! It's exactly a white board !
About screen drawing :
My setup up - a screen to draw directly on it.
I draw on screen and on paper too, and I have to argue something : I can make a lot more experiences on computer than on paper because the limitations factors are less importants on screen.
On CSP, Krita or Photoshop, I can create my own brushes, canvas, patterns, add mathematicals fractals if I wish to, add textures from my photos, I can build my own set of tools. With paper drawing, I depend on what my money can afford. I can customise brushes, but I can't build my own because I don't have cute animals to take their hair. I can't make my own paper (but I tried, I tried really hard), I have to make my own painting with pigments, pigments which do whatever they want in binders, binders I have to make too. Patterns ask for a duplicating medium like a light table.
The right analogy here for the same customisation degree would be Scott crafting his own papers cards, putting ink on pens after making it. Tedious and time consuming.
As a crazy tester, I have more fun with digital painting (and I don't colonize my entire home for painting and paper making anymore).
The search tool
I understand that @scottscheper you're not a fan of it, but you did'nt talk about it. Why ? Do you have some ressources to explain your point of view ? That was a true question I have, because I was asking myself about it, I don't use it a lot, even on digial, I always use Index. So I was wondering.
Thank you, @scottscheper and @Sascha. I'm only two hours in and haven't come to the MMA reference yet.
I have taken the time to start the integration process of this discussion into my ZK. Below is the first draft of the first two hours. Interesting.
How do I process a discussion like this? Essentially it is like onboarding a podcast. It's a slow process.
Below is my thinking, spilled on the screen. Laugh if you want. I work on a podcast listening to it slowly, capturing anything that sparks my curiosity, is eloquently presented, or things I don't agree with. Once I have the raw capture, I'll refactor it like I do any other zettel. Atomize where I think appropriate, rephrase ideas with my own understanding, deeply interconnect the new ideas with established ideas, and let the zettel iterate through my review cycle.
Subatomic: Sascha in the digital corner and Scott Scheper in the analog corner MMA bout/Lovefest
Level/Depth of Processing
The more you process or factor an idea with different tools, the greater the imprint in memory.
"You remember things more the more you process them via different channels."
External context of a learning experience. Like a memory palace, but not quite, a semantic space that you can wander through.
Adding evidence or argument.
Create access points for knowledge when creating notes but forming as many meaningful connections as possible.
Beauty and ugly are shortcuts to hidden patterns.
Elaborative rehearsal as opposed to maintenance rehearsal.
In contrast to maintenance rehearsal, which involves simple rote repetition, elaborative rehearsal involves deep semantic processing of a to-be-remembered item resulting in durable memories.1
Process deeply. Scott's argument is "that there is no other option, you think deeply when writing by hand, it slows your mind down."
Questions
Is there some confusion about zettelkasten necessity with the sufficient?2
How does all this fit with Luhmann's notion of chaos and complexity?
Intelligence embedded in the process of zettelkasting.
Phenomena, Interpretation, and Synthesis create architecture within the process of zettelkasting.
Digital or analog doesn't matter
Nonfiction or fiction doesn't matter
Match the tool from the ZK toolbox with the learning situation.
Is the tool as sophisticated as the end product is what users look for in ZK software or when they choose analog.
Use iteration as a keystone process to pressure load zettelkasting so it can give you new and novel ideas through the brain's natural tendency as a pattern-seeking organ. The zettelkasten feels like it is giving you something like a communication partner.
Digital can absorb the best parts of an analog system like drawing and even handwriting through image capture.
beautiful-language
The Disease of Modernity - looking at a screen.
Rift on the joy of zettelkasting.
90 wpm 500 keystrokes a minute are too slow to keep up with thinking?! How would handwriting influence this?
Will Simpson
My zettelkasten is for my ideas, not the ideas of others. I don’t want to waste my time tinkering with my ZK; I’d rather dive into the work itself. My peak cognition is behind me. One day soon, I will read my last book, write my last note, eat my last meal, and kiss my sweetie for the last time. kestrelcreek.com
@Sascha You mentioned some thoughts about Spaced Repetition. Have you spoken to this elsewhere in the past? Interested what you might have written in the past about this topic.
@rwrobinson said: @Sascha You mentioned some thoughts about Spaced Repetition. Have you spoken to this elsewhere in the past? Interested what you might have written in the past about this topic.
No, but is an upcoming topic for the blog once the book is finished.
Spoiler: I don't think that spaced repetition is needed if you apply the principles of the Zettelkasten Method digilantly. And even stronger: The ZKM and spaced repetition could be framed as opposites on a spectrum for learning.
@Sascha said:
No, but is an upcoming topic for the blog once the book is finished.
I'm very excited about this, btw. I doubt you'd want to give any estimate... but do you want to? What about a year (e.g., sometime in 2023 I think it will be out...). Or just tell me hush.
@Sascha said:
Spoiler: I don't think that spaced repetition is needed if you apply the principles of the Zettelkasten Method digilantly. And even stronger: The ZKM and spaced repetition could be framed as opposites on a spectrum for learning.
Do you plan on engaging the emphasis on it within educational/cognitive psychology? It seems to be one of the top topics for learning in those domains.
@Sascha said:
No, but is an upcoming topic for the blog once the book is finished.
I'm very excited about this, btw. I doubt you'd want to give any estimate... but do you want to?
I want, but I can't. There is a very interesting book by Will Self: The Quantity Theory of Insanity. The short story "Waiting" could be also named "How Sascha writes"..
@Sascha said:
Spoiler: I don't think that spaced repetition is needed if you apply the principles of the Zettelkasten Method digilantly. And even stronger: The ZKM and spaced repetition could be framed as opposites on a spectrum for learning.
Do you plan on engaging the emphasis on it within educational/cognitive psychology? It seems to be one of the top topics for learning in those domains.
This will depend when I will tackle this topic. There are two layers:
The conceptional layer.
The empirical layer.
I will touch both layers because both a necessary for my argumentation. But I don't know how much cognitive science I will have processed at the time of publishing.
I came across the Three Layers of Evidence concept in this video. I wanted to know more, so I found a related blog post by Sascha, dated 2019.
There has been something lacking in my notes. I plan to strengthen my notes by trying to apply the Three Layers of Evidence concept whereby I write with thought given to Phenomena, Interpretation, and Integration.
Comments
Totaly agree with Scott about Zettelkasten videos with Sanke Ahrens and Obsidian. A lot of "how to begin" and bunch of settings of the software. It would be a good idea to train in analog just to understand the delibarate way of making notes and escape from the collector fallacie.
The cockpit picture for Words is great.
Wax tablets ! Awesome ! It's exactly a white board !
About screen drawing :
My setup up - a screen to draw directly on it.
I draw on screen and on paper too, and I have to argue something : I can make a lot more experiences on computer than on paper because the limitations factors are less importants on screen.
On CSP, Krita or Photoshop, I can create my own brushes, canvas, patterns, add mathematicals fractals if I wish to, add textures from my photos, I can build my own set of tools. With paper drawing, I depend on what my money can afford. I can customise brushes, but I can't build my own because I don't have cute animals to take their hair. I can't make my own paper (but I tried, I tried really hard), I have to make my own painting with pigments, pigments which do whatever they want in binders, binders I have to make too. Patterns ask for a duplicating medium like a light table.
The right analogy here for the same customisation degree would be Scott crafting his own papers cards, putting ink on pens after making it. Tedious and time consuming.
As a crazy tester, I have more fun with digital painting (and I don't colonize my entire home for painting and paper making anymore).
The search tool
I understand that @scottscheper you're not a fan of it, but you did'nt talk about it. Why ? Do you have some ressources to explain your point of view ? That was a true question I have, because I was asking myself about it, I don't use it a lot, even on digial, I always use Index. So I was wondering.
@Sascha you mentioned MMA and Mike Tyson. Also, I saw a video you posted of Khabib recently. As a big fan of MMA, I feel very at home here now.
Thank you, @scottscheper and @Sascha. I'm only two hours in and haven't come to the MMA reference yet.
I have taken the time to start the integration process of this discussion into my ZK. Below is the first draft of the first two hours. Interesting.
How do I process a discussion like this? Essentially it is like onboarding a podcast. It's a slow process.
Below is my thinking, spilled on the screen. Laugh if you want. I work on a podcast listening to it slowly, capturing anything that sparks my curiosity, is eloquently presented, or things I don't agree with. Once I have the raw capture, I'll refactor it like I do any other zettel. Atomize where I think appropriate, rephrase ideas with my own understanding, deeply interconnect the new ideas with established ideas, and let the zettel iterate through my review cycle.
---
UUID: ›[[202205151530]]
cdate: 05-15-2022 03:30 PM
tags: #proofing
---
Analog vs. Digital Zettelkasten
Subatomic: Sascha in the digital corner and Scott Scheper in the analog corner MMA bout/Lovefest
Level/Depth of Processing
Adding evidence or argument.
Create access points for knowledge when creating notes but forming as many meaningful connections as possible.
Questions
How does all this fit with Luhmann's notion of chaos and complexity?
Intelligence embedded in the process of zettelkasting.
Match the tool from the ZK toolbox with the learning situation.
beautiful-language
Rift on the joy of zettelkasting.
90 wpm 500 keystrokes a minute are too slow to keep up with thinking?! How would handwriting influence this?
–––
Works Cited
Sascha and Scott
Elaborative Rehearsal ↩︎
The Concepts of Necessary Conditions and Sufficient Conditions ↩︎
Will Simpson
My zettelkasten is for my ideas, not the ideas of others. I don’t want to waste my time tinkering with my ZK; I’d rather dive into the work itself. My peak cognition is behind me. One day soon, I will read my last book, write my last note, eat my last meal, and kiss my sweetie for the last time.
kestrelcreek.com
@Sascha You mentioned some thoughts about Spaced Repetition. Have you spoken to this elsewhere in the past? Interested what you might have written in the past about this topic.
No, but is an upcoming topic for the blog once the book is finished.
Spoiler: I don't think that spaced repetition is needed if you apply the principles of the Zettelkasten Method digilantly. And even stronger: The ZKM and spaced repetition could be framed as opposites on a spectrum for learning.
I am a Zettler
I'm very excited about this, btw. I doubt you'd want to give any estimate... but do you want to?
What about a year (e.g., sometime in 2023 I think it will be out...). Or just tell me hush. 
Do you plan on engaging the emphasis on it within educational/cognitive psychology? It seems to be one of the top topics for learning in those domains.
I want, but I can't. There is a very interesting book by Will Self: The Quantity Theory of Insanity. The short story "Waiting" could be also named "How Sascha writes"..
This will depend when I will tackle this topic. There are two layers:
I will touch both layers because both a necessary for my argumentation. But I don't know how much cognitive science I will have processed at the time of publishing.
I am a Zettler
@Will Great writeup and interesting seeing your zettel 🙂
Scott P. Scheper
Website | Twitter | Reddit | YouTube
I came across the Three Layers of Evidence concept in this video. I wanted to know more, so I found a related blog post by Sascha, dated 2019.
There has been something lacking in my notes. I plan to strengthen my notes by trying to apply the Three Layers of Evidence concept whereby I write with thought given to Phenomena, Interpretation, and Integration.