The Wizard’s mistake

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Call for "Critique my Zettel"-Notes.

Loni

OK, I give it a try As I write in french, I'll post the french original post to check the traduction I join with it.

Hum… I don't use tag at all, only for statut of my note. I think the main article and the explicite title are enough to guess what it is about. [[4.0.]] -> Ideas of story, [[4.1.]] -> ideas about this story of perticular. I do that when I begin to have a clutter of the same subject into my Zettelkasten, like colored tab on a paper one. Mythologie has its own, Chimic as well, Writing as art too, Art theory and How to make my own painting (you'll never know what "blue" means until you make one with pure pigments ♡)… I identify a person with a small letter at the beginning of the name and that is enough for me ( [[A.Léonard de Vinci]] [[O.Oscar Wilde]]… I handle my citations in my Zettelkasten this way.

So, enough blabla, time for my note :

---
alias: The Magician’s Error
---
# The Wizard’s mistake.


- Date:2022.03.16
- Status:: #Status/ToComplete 
- Links:: 
    - [[Ghibli, Journey of Chihiro]]
- Parent:: [[4.0.]] [[4.1.Roman. 

## **Source**............................... 
* Inspired by Chihiro, Hakku’s character, who sold himself to Yubaba to learn magic
* He thought his life was worthless because he was alone 
    * He replaced the love of a family with the **quest for power**, the one that isolates and corrupts
    * He didn’t care, he was alone.
* Meeting Chihiro reminded him of his real name, his origin, his identity, gave him back to himself
    * He had found a reason to oppose Yubaba, he wanted to emancipate himself, to regain the control of his life and to renounce this power, which was the only one he had left

## What speaks to me...........................
* Isolating oneself to know better, to know better: the **quest for knowledge** is a solitary process that effectively isolates, the quest is carried out alone 
* The tragic error side ([[Genre.Tragedy]] - when fate is already written). He could not free himself unless he sacrificed something: the only gain of his quest with Yubaba was power, he sold his soul 
    * [[O.Ghoete.Faust]], [[O.Oscar Wilde.Portrait of Dorian Gray]] are good example of this process. 
* The power he had acquired and the image of the powerful, learned magician with the boot of a stronger but more vicious woman 
    * Without direct control of the woman, Hakku may have been stronger than her (subtil)

## What I want to do with it: 
* A Seit-like magician who loves knowledge, who effectively isolates himself, who sells his soul to the devil like [[Faust.Analyse]] 
* The devil is nothing more or less than a figure of ambivalent, dangerous, paranoid authority who distrusts him and will always prevent him from accessing what would make him a true magician accomplished, free and happy
* Prisoner, submissive, fatal error, he must redeem himself. How? Why? 
    - [ ] #Question How [[Asura. ]] or [[Ombre]] can they redeem themselves from the mistake made with [[Arcanian Species|Arcanians]]]? 

## Magoria/Blog...........................
* [[Dante]] Althiero: like the lone magician, Dante was bullied, controlled and abused by someone who was afraid of his power. Where Yubaba is paranoid about its supremacy, Isai was violent by terror and trauma. 
* [[Seit.]] the Fox: like the magician, Seit likes to know but especially to understand how things work and how they are related to each others. Seit would not ask himself the question before saying yes, until he understood the magnitude of the price to be paid for his action. 
* [[Asura.]] and [[Ombre]] must redeem themselves, either or both. One is an Arcanian creation, the other is a corrupt former magician won by the power [[[O.Tolkien.Lord of the Rings]] Sauron? Faust? In the name of vanity, like Dorian Gray? What were the reasons for the departure, what are the motivations for the arrival, the epiphanies? 
    * I want a bad twist for Asura 
    * A bitter sweet finish for Ombre 
        * Asura destroyed everything she loved, which is why she sought freedom. 
        * **Ombre's Trivial**. 

--- 
* Sources: 
    * [[Ghibli.Journey of Chihiro]] 
    * [[4.1.Roman.

---

alias: L'Erreur du Magicien

L'erreur du Magicien.

• Date:: 2022.03.16
• Statut:: #Statut/ÀCompléter

• Liens::

  • [[Ghibli.Voyage de Chihiro]]

• Parent:: [[4.0.]] [[4.1.Roman.Aux prises des ombres]]

Source...............................

• Inspirée de Chihiro, le personnage de Hakku, qui s'est vendu à Yubaba pour apprendre la magie

• Il pensait que sa vie n'avait pas de valeur, puisqu'il était seul

  • Il a remplacé l'amour d'une famille par la quête de puissance, celle qui isole et qui corrompt
  • Ça ne lui faisait rien, il était seul.

• Rencontrer Chihiro lui a rappeler son vrai prénom, son origine, son identité, l'a rendu à lui-même

  • Il avait trouvé une raison de s'opposer à Yubaba, il avait envie de s'émanciper, de retrouver le controle de sa vie et de renoncer à cette puissance, qui était la seule qui lui restait

Ce qui me parle...........................

• S'isoler pour mieux connaitre, mieux savoir : la quête de savoir est un processus solitaire qui isole effectivement, la quête s'effectue seule

• Le côté erreur tragique([[Genre.Tragédie]] - quand le destin est déjà écrit). Il n'a pas pu se libérer à moins de sacrifier quelque chose : le seul gain de sa quête auprès de Yubaba était le pouvoir, il a vendu son âme

  • [[O.Ghoete.Faust]], [[O.Oscar Wilde.Portrait de Dorian Gray]] sont des bons exemples du processus.

• La puissance qu'il avait acquise et l'image du magicien puissant, savant, à la botte d'une femme plus forte, mais surtout plus vicieuse

  • Sans le contrôle direct de la femme, Hakku aurait peut-être été plus fort qu'elle

Ce que je veux en faire :

• Un magicien "à la Seit" qui aime le savoir, qui s'isole effectivement, qui vend son âme au diable comme [[Faust.Analyse]]
• Le diable n'est ni plus ni moins qu'une figure d'autorité ambivalente, dangereuse, paranoïaque qui se méfie de lui et l'empêchera toujours d'accéder à ce qui ferait de lui un vrai magicien accompli, libre et heureux
• Prisonnier, soumis, erreur fatale, il doit se racheter. Comment ? Pourquoi ?
  • [ ] #Question Comment [[Asura.]] ou [[Ombre]] peuvent-ils se racheter de l'erreur commise auprès des [[Espèce.Arcaniens|Arcaniens]]  ?

Magoria/Blog...........................

• [[Dante.]] Althiero : comme le magicien solitaire, Dante a été brimé, contrôlé et maltraité par quelqu'un qui avait peur de sa puissance. là où la Yubaba est paranoïaque quant à sa suprématie, Isaï était violente par terreur et traumatisme.
• [[Seit.]] le Renard : comme le magicien, Seit aime le savoir, la connaissance, mais surtout comprendre comment fonctionne les choses et comment elles sont reliées entre elles. Seit ne se poserait pas la question avant de dire oui, jusqu'à ce qu'il comprenne l'ampleur du prix à payer pour son action.
• [[Asura.]] et [[Ombre]] doivent se racheter, l'un ou l'autre, ou les deux. L'un est une création Arcanienne, l'autre est un ancien magicien corrompu gagné par le pouvoir [[O.Tolkien.Seigneur des Anneaux]] Sauron ? Faust ? Au nom de la vanité, comme Dorian Gray ? Quelles furent les motivations de départ, quelles sont les motivations à l'arrivée, les épiphanies ?
  • Je veux un "bad twist" pour Asura
  • Une fin douce amère pour Ombre
    • Asura a détruit tout ce qu'elle aimait, ce pourquoi elle cherchait à se libérer.
    • Épreuve d'Ombre.

---

• Sources :
  • [[Ghibli.Voyage de Chihiro]]
  • [[4.1.Roman.Aux prises des ombres]] (titre temporaire)
    ```

Sascha

Content

• The writer has to collect without committing the collector's fallacy. So, my critique will be in part guided by this principle.

• This note is an awesome example on how the layers of evidence can be applied.

  1. First layer: Phenomenon. Describe accurately the specific aspect of Haku's story in Chihiro.
  2. Second Layer: Interpretation. In this case, it is a generalisation of what Haku is actually doing. Haku might guide Chihiro how to survive the first encounter with Yubaba. But what does it mean? One interpretation is: He tests Chihiro if she has the character to stand up against Yubaba. Since he is a lost kami, only the worthy hero can rescue him. His openness to the feminine (feeling for others) is demonstrated by instinctively rescue the innocent child. Chihiro's worthiness ist (first) tested by her first demonstration of power and order by standing up against Yubaba. It is a motif of mutual rescue to become whole. The instantiation is ethereal since the masculine and feminine are neither in their limited (mature) form nor in the process of limiting (maturing). Haku is a kami and therefore without limits in time. Chihiro is a child and therefore is pure potential which also omits any limits.
  3. Third Layer: Synthesis. The re-specification of the generalisation in your story.

• The central thought is in the middle here. The anchor of the thought is the a specific case of sacrificing wholeness (Self) for power. Haku's Story is just the nudge to think about this. Even your re-specification is somewhat auxiliary. Not in importance but in structure.

• My recommendation is to divide this note into three:

  1. A note on this specific archetypical pattern. It refers to any instance of this pattern you find. Also: It uses the instances as supporting evidence.
  2. A note on Haku similar to the fandom wiki page.
  3. A note on your application of the pattern.

• This orders the notes into general pattern and instances. You can then use the generalisation as a tool. Example: If you apply this pattern to one of your stories. You can use the note on the archetypical pattern as a checklist if you presented your reader with all the ingredients necessary to sense the meaning. (e.g. "Is the sacrifice presented in an emotionally impactful way")

• The content and the links are all about fiction. Therefore, I think you have great potential by connecting fiction with non-fiction. Concepts like loneliness, solitude, paranoia and trauma are heavily researched and you could ground your writing the reality of the psyche is (or what science claims about it). Concepts like sacrifice and power are main topics of religion which can be a source of powerful images. (The Sacrifice of Odin and of Jesus are not by chance center points of two very different belief systems). Redemption is not only a religious concept but also a concept of ethics.

  • Of course, it depends on how far out you want to branch your foundation. To much formal stuff like science or philosophy could be dangerous since they can make dry (dead) what should be inspiring (alive).
  • Reading non-fiction for fiction is what you can do. You'd read non-fiction a lot more with application in mind than the average academic (more than none).

• About Haku:

  • Perhaps, you watched the movie in french and the dubs change a bit of the content? I don't recall him having any connection to the concept of family. (But: Haku and Chihiro are siblings?)

Title

• I am not sure if the title of the note refers to a specific event (The mistake). If so, then my comment is off.
• I'd change the title at least to "A wizard's mistake".

• An even better title, depending on your understanding and way of writing, would include the nature of the mistake. In this case: Sacrificing the Self for the wizard's power. Here are some title recommendations:

  • "Wizard mistake - Sacrificing Self for Power"
  • "Sacrificing Self for Power - The Wizard"

• These titles are based on the assumption that the central thought is the specific mistake a wizard can make and not the source material (phenomenon)

Tags

• No comment on existing tags since you don't use any.

Links

• Using Obsidian nudges you a bit towards wiki-like linking because in edit mode the complete file title needs to be put into the double-brackets. Evidence for that is to be found in the lack of link context.

  • Example "Question How [[Asura. ]] or [[Ombre]] can they redeem themselves from the mistake made with [[Arcanian Species|Arcanians]]]?" The link to Asura and Ombre seem to me motivated by the mere mentioning of the names since the same links are only a couple of lines above: "How [[Asura. ]] or [[Ombre]] can they redeem themselves from the mistake made with [[Arcanian Species|Arcanians]]]? "

• Link context are especially an opportunity for fiction writers because meaning and (symbolic) context are what story makes unique. One could say that the goal of non-fiction is to be the least symbolic and the goal of fiction is to be hyper-symbolic (patterns within patterns within patterns).

• Links should be less about giving associations and background information. As an open person that is entrenched in a story you have plenty of associations forming spontaneously and know the background information inside-out. A, for your, more productive way is to link either more specific or task-like.
  • Example:
  • Now: "[[Seit.]] the Fox: like the magician, Seit likes to know but especially to understand how things work and how they are related to each others."
  • Changed: Seit the Fox: like the magician, Seit likes to know but especially to understand how things work and how they are related to each others. (Make sure the difference between knowing and understanding is conveyed in his introduction. Use [[difference-knowing-understanding | the concept of understanding as process, knowledge as state]])"

Summary

I hold back on the content side since I won't take from the adventure of writing your story.

This note is high level. Some of my critique is specific to my personal way of thinking about story which is more formal and less open. This lead me to judge mere associations more negatively and more precise linking more positively than it might be beneficial to your individual optimal point.

Where could you go?

• I envy you for your drawing skills. To me, those patterns are an awesome opportunity to create an image that tells a (part of the) story. I have begun to draw these images and assign to each element the intended meaning and the symbol I use. (I have a tool box = structure note for symbolic language; there is a term "morphemes" that gives you access to a lot of research on fairy tales. However, I don't think the research is rigorous enough. But inspiration is inspiration..)
• Already mentioned: You could test the actions, feelings etc. of your characters against what psychology would suggest.

• Surprisingly, I see very little about beauty and ugliness in your note. This might be an aspect that could lead you in a emotionally impactful direction. There is good reason that Yubaba as the dark feminine is so ugly, Chihiro is neutral (neither a pretty girl, nor an ugly duckling, not even tomboyish) and Haku is beautiful. Also: There is a lot to learn if you ask yourself about the beauty and/or ugliness of certain images you create.

  • Some examples on how to to use beauty and ugliness to gauge what is happening:
  • In The Terminator 2 - Judgment Day, Sarah Connor is confronted with her choice to sacrifice a big chunk of her femininity for the sake of her son as the saviour of humanity against the machines. The machines (and Terminators) are the perfect image of the pure masculine with the complete lack of any feeling for others or seeing the whole. By the transformation of Linda Hamilton from a quite feminine appearance in Terminator 1 to the masculinised version in part 2 we can see a change from beauty to ugliness if you sacrifice the femininity. You also see what ugliness does to you when stands in front of the Dyson family with the will to kill. She looks more beautiful when she breaks down even though one might call it weakness. But it would her complete descent into hell if she'd kill a family, a real version of the dream she sacrificed. Masterfully, the lightning makes her face look softer to enhance the beauty of her face when she looks at the Mexican family.
  • In The Godfather, Puzo tricks the mind of the reader by injecting as much feminine and beauty into Vito as possible while also making sure that he retains his masculinity. He cares for his people, even cares for people he doesn't know, sees the whole (both sides of the coin) which makes him a master negotiator, is cultivated, takes care of his family and is a loving grandfather to his grandchildren. At the same time, he is physically fast, almost predator-like, violent, cold, detached etc. He is a combination of beauty and ugliness which is only possible by an almost complete dissociation of all the aspects. From scene to scene sometimes he is part of beauty (with his grandchildren), part of ugliness (in his indifferent violence) and the characters he interact with are also very divided in their attitude to him. Clemenza is described as a beast, almost a monster. Yet, he is tamed and loves Vito. This is a very archetypical image in fairy tales in which the hero shows his openness to the feminine by helping an animal (e.g. sharing his food) in the beginning of the story. The image is corrupted (masterfully). Unlike in the very ancient story of the beauty and the beast the beast is not transformed and becomes whole by balancing his masculine with the necessary feminine. It remains a monster, an obedient tool to carry out the violence that stems from the ugliness of the unbalanced masculine
  • In Fire and Ice, there is drawn an opposite picture. Lord Nekron is the feminised man. His beauty is only superficial and the ugliness jumps the scene. He is covered in beauty. The beauty is just the lair of his unintegrated masculinity which lashes out in two iconic scenes: The first scene when he kicks princess Teegra which indicates his non-willing to open to the feminine. The second one when he uses magic instead of fighting fairly against Larn. He shows that he is neither open to the feminine (especially, not feeling for others) nor open to his masculinity (by partaking in a level fight against other man). In both instances, his face becomes ugly. The neanderthals (are they neanderthals?) mirror Clemenza in their role as beasts. In this movie, however, they come into contact with the whole (Self) by he scene of mercy. While Clemenza dies the death he deserves the last neanderthal is rescued by Teegra in an act of mercy. Larn, open to the feminine, listens to her and they "start over", giving the world the opportunity to heal. In this movie, you see very clearly that the masculine is necessary. It provides the power and the will to overcome the evil. Darkwolf overcomes Nekron with pure masculinity showing that there is more than beauty (feminine) necessary to become whole. The masculine might not be beautiful but it gets the job done. The purification of the masculine, a) if connected to the whole (Larn as a balanced hero) and b) is released (Darkwolf leaves) (another possibility would be to balance him out with feminine to make him able to live in the community) can be a tool, albeit only temporary.

• I tried to use beauty and ugliness as an access to meaning and symbolism of story to demonstrate the power of this category.

Comment to my comment: I write about story as if I was Mr. Supersmart. This stems from my conviction to my reasoning, my temperament and for style (less words, less grammar to worry about). It surely does not stem from an insane wisdom and competence.

Also: In this case, I used mostly the framework of 7 Basic Plots by Christopher Booker to guide my claims and statements about story.

I mostly stayed away from commenting on your own story because I don't think it is ethical to touch stories that are not your own.

my 2.1 cents so far.

Loni

Hi ! I will share my first reactions now, and come back later to develop my thoughts about your deep analysis later, when I will finish proceeding it internally, because I will have questions, and they will pop up (obviously, late at night just before sleep).

First impressions : (14h00)

Thank you a lot ! I am used to informational long-form writings thanks to my (relatively short) academic studies, and this exercise of "inspirational note" is experimental, at this state. I see I have a lot of improvements to make, and I think it is truly awesome ! What a challenge, your critic motivate me A LOT.

I will just come back into something really relevant you say : beauty, ugly, and form language. I did not comment it, you are right… And I realized that because for me, it is obvious. I draw since I am a child, and work in the art field since I am 15. So… I did squeeze this point for keeping track of my thoughts. The other thing is : nor my characters neither their backstory are built, I did not approach the character design yet. But I will certainly build them during summer and will have the need of this kind of inputs.

You are right, the concepts of beauty and ugliness in fiction deserve their own series of notes, I have a lot to explain to myself and dig something inside it. And other forms as well. And psychology.

My characters' names seem to float in the middle of my notes "Ombre" and "Asura", they are "obvious" to me as well. I began to write this note and then, my neurons heat and "OH YEAH that would be the missing part". Since, my ideas refined themselves. I am a quick writer, but my way of processing ideas to work them looks like a slow digestion. I play with ideas like a Rubik's cube and when I find a match for the first steps, I go further, and further…

About Haku : it totally could be a difference between translation. I watched the film many times with my son, who don't know how to read, so we had to look at it in VF (french voices). But the studios who took care of Ghibli's translation were sometimes… Hum… I don't find a polite word, in fact. Haku, in the French version, said something like "no one waits for me anymore".

After some hours of reflection : (20h00)

I have a coffee in my hand, my brain worked on your message this afternoon.

Reality lasagnas

I made this note before or while we discussed about layers of evidence. You show them through my note, and now I have my hands on it, I think I understand this concept better. I will see if I can apply it in the future

From fleeting to exploitable note

You are right, I should divide this note into three parts. Haku character is an entry point to the concept that inspired me, and it should be seen like this.

So, I should -if I understand it right :

• Make a note about Haku in a wiki-fandom style to remember important points that interest me in the film.
• A note : Analyze and find patterns of archetypes present in Chihiro's story. The Pure Child (I think ?) The Lost One, The Nasty Old Baba… I have a lot of work !
• A note : How to inject all this new objects, concepts and ideas into a viable story. "A wizard's mistake" with pattern and archetypes to add fuel.
• A note to see if this "archetypal story" can interact with the ideas I have for the story of Ombre and Asura, yes, no, how, does it work, why ?
• Psychological notes : difference between knowing/understanding, trauma, redemption, non-fictional material.

In a few words : "dig deeper" !

Links and software :

Right now, I am switching into ID filename, which nudges me into contextualize more my links. Less wiki-like links, more contextual links to create meanings and convey symbols.

I have successfully tweaked Zettlr now, but it lacks one major feature from my point of view : quick switcher. I come from IDE software, I write my novels in Sublime Text 4 (before convert it to HTML with Pandoc and add it into Sigil) and for a mysterious reason, I did not succeed in making René's package work on my soft. So Obsidian stays the more agile software to my point of view, because it does not change my way of work and I don't need to mouse or to list all my files into the file explorer to open something.

Critic my story could be a new thread ?

The frame of "critic my note" is not suitable to critic the story it contains, and, on my note, the story just begins to build itself.

However, a "critic my story" call could be a fascinating thread as well, and I would welcome ideas and tactful suggestions with a smile, just like for my note. Because an artist develops its skills through the confrontation between visions of the world.

In my art school, we made "critic my drawing" session. It was really profitable for everyone : the one who critics train their vision, the one whom drawing is criticized could see their work through others' eyes.

The visual aspect of beauty :

Disclaimer : This not the Zettler padawan who writes this part, but the writer with art and art history background. Maybe you are conscious about that, but it really matters to me. And I have to warn you here : I am strongly opiniated on this subject.

Art is about choices.
The three examples you gave were from films. They were relevant in this context. But I really want to remind us that we write texts. We made the choice, conscienciously, to convey story through writing.

A story is a story, but visual clues are not our material while we write a story. We have to tickle the reader's mind with words. A whole stream in litterature right now is to make writers believe that a novel should be built like a film with visual clues inside it. If we follow it, we cut ourselves, as writers, from what makes our art beautiful, because playing with words to let the reader's brain creating something is the essence of our art. We are not only pictures generators, but also abstract feelings, sensations, passing time, abstract concepts, ideas…

I would like to reformulate "show don't tell", which is totaly in line with cinema good practices, into "demonstrate, not say". Demonstrate, with words, the effect of time passing, the emotional outburst of your character, the evolution of his/her/its behavior, and so on…

It especially matters in a genre like Fantasy. What readers wants ? Something they can't experiment here, in the real world. "Bring me where I can't go by myself". Dragons, magic, epic, gods, fairies, kamis, "onirisme", awe, marvelous, terror, fantastic. Visual is not the only path to convey them. Neither the most effective.

And I have to add another warning here : a lot of scenarists who writes books about writings come from Campbell's Monomyth. It's a big no for me. Campbell's monomyth is a psychoanalyst book. The others promise you to give you easy tools to write a book… From my point of view, psychoanalyst method correspond to the Spider analogy of Francis Bacon, the others changes you into Ants : (I think you know this citation but…)

Those who have handled sciences have been either men of experiment or men of dogmas. The men of experiment are like the ant, they only collect and use; the reasoners resemble spiders, who make cobwebs out of their own substance. But the bee takes a middle course: it gathers its material from the flowers of the garden and of the field, but transforms and digests it by a power of its own. Not unlike this is the true business of philosophy; for it neither relies solely or chiefly on the powers of the mind, nor does it take the matter which it gathers from natural history and mechanical experiments and lay it up in the memory whole, as it finds it, but lays it up in the understanding altered and digested. Therefore from a closer and purer league between these two faculties, the experimental and the rational (such as has never yet been made), much may be hoped.

Bacon, Francis. The New Organon, Book One, 1620.

I am not a master myself. But I think we would all gain to share our insights So keep on being Mr. Supersmart here, I think I understand the frame you place, and the posture you take to explain things. You don't need to be Charles Baudelaire or Dante Alighieri to have interesting insights and knowledge to share.

Loni

And there the random pop-up thoughts again.

I envy you for your drawing skills. To me, those patterns are an awesome opportunity to create an image that tells a (part of the) story. I have begun to draw these images and assign to each element the intended meaning and the symbol I use. (I have a tool box = structure note for symbolic language; there is a term "morphemes" that gives you access to a lot of research on fairy tales. However, I don't think the research is rigorous enough. But inspiration is inspiration..)

Inspiration is indeed inspiration. It does not have to be rigourous for most part, unless you need a biological representation of the heart… And I would pay to see what kind of inspiration lays here. I sometimes play with random ideas from obscur demonic magic website and… yeap. Random ideas from any undefined culture without any bibliography, reference to the origin of the myth or whatever. But hell, how to say "no" to the picture of a Queen Lilith of Hell ? I don't know. I really don't know.

Let's see if you can relate here:
Drawing is a way of creating a univers of emotions. I create "mood", ambiance and aesthetic laws with drawings, as well as pure design. Visual inspiration is a necessity as well, to understand things but also to generate emotions and inspire new story. I see emotions as a creative fuel.

Here it is an "iconic" one of one of my main character. She carries something, Goddess Astrae's Wish, the one which created the whole univers. I use it as an inspiration, but also as a leading clue for the story building. You have to be your own art director.

You can learn too :
Drawing is a skill you can work If you want to, I can find you some solid lessons in English to learn. I am not Michel-Angelo myself and… you say it yourself : inspiration is inspiration. It does not matter how well you draw and paint, as long as you obtain something "workable". Take a look on storyboard for example !

And there is my question :
I played with your drawing of conceptual and symbolic association since this afternoon and maybe I don't understand something, because I have difficulties to figure how it looks like. It seems you elaborate a sophisticated visual association language, don't you ? What form does it take ?

Risky supposition here :
The more I read about your work, the more I feel that the thing you like the most is to create symbolic patterns of meanings, like threads weaving a fabric. It is a way of seeing a story, but if I was your teacher, I would ask you to write a short children story. You are insightfull and have laser eyes on many things, but I feel like you miss the "event" part maybe (big "maybe" here) ? A story is also a suite of events and characters in logical interaction. There is not absolute "good" and "bad" approach, but seeing other approachs strengthens skills. I will definitively beneficiate from your symbolic view and the layers of reality, by the way.

However, take it with a pinch of salt : I only express my intuition based on the message I read.

ZettelDistraction

I hope you don't mind an incidental note of agreement on this.

@Loni said:
And I have to add another warning here : a lot of scenarists who writes books about writings come from Campbell's Monomyth. It's a big no for me. Campbell's monomyth is a psychoanalyst book.

Campbell's Hero's Journey is a dead end, in my opinion. At the risk of misinterpreting the Zen koan about the tiger and the strawberry, I prefer the "existential vice" to the hero's journey.

Loni

@ZettelDistraction said:
Campbell's Hero's Journey is a dead end, in my opinion.

Yeap. It can be interesting to read, for personnal culture, for ideas and inspiration. But the way it is used now is a "how to standardize an art industry - recipes and manual of utilisation".

If, as writers, we follow the trend, we will die. Novels will become the next way of writing scenarii, but not piece of art by themselves. Example : "The Expanse", the serie, was a serie of novel, written by Daniel Abraham and Ty Frank who are also scenarist and producer.

"Why we should read a novel, when the serie/film will add a lot of the missing visual informations from the book ?"

I don't know the solution. But I will keep studying novels and litterature rather than read scenarists learning books.

At the risk of misinterpreting the Zen koan about the tiger and the strawberry, I prefer the "existential vice" to the hero's journey.

Bouddhism carry a lot of pieces of interesting story and ideas itself, indeed. Do you have some ressources to help me to understand "existential vice" ?

From what I understand and what I know about Bouddhism, this koan is a parabol of life itself. Tigers are birth and death, the mice is the time we have as a living thing, the guy hanging itself in vine is the live we live now, the strawberry is the only thing at our reach. The guy just accepts to die soon and rather than fighting against this truth, he just eats a strawberry. Fatalism.

ZettelDistraction

@Loni said:

Bouddhism carry a lot of pieces of interesting story and ideas itself, indeed. Do you have some resources to help me to understand "existential vice" ?

I could not do better than link to the brief poem, "All you did," by Kay Ryan. http://www.ashokkarra.com/2016/01/kay-ryan-all-you-did/

From what I understand and what I know about Bouddhism, this koan is a parable of life itself. Tigers are birth and death, the mice is the time we have as a living thing, the guy hanging itself in vine is the live we live now, the strawberry is the only thing at our reach. The guy just accepts to die soon and rather than fighting against this truth, he just eats a strawberry. Fatalism.

There are many interpretations-perhaps eating the strawberry was a distraction from the problem of survival that the protagonist, whom the reader might recognize, has apparently given up on. The pleasure of eating a strawberry or the more difficult and painful attempt to find a way out--which of these alternatives is more meaningful? Perhaps the koan suggests the potential of pain to indicate what is most important.

GeoEng51

@ZettelDistraction said:

I could not do better than link to the brief poem, "All you did," by Kay Ryan. http://www.ashokkarra.com/2016/01/kay-ryan-all-you-did/

Thanks for sharing that poem; I liked it. It seems a meditation on changing circumstances and changing perspectives. In the end, it is still just perspective - until we fall and even then, only when we hit the bottom, that it is consequence.

Maybe that is just my mood. I started watching a Korean TV drama/series last night that deals with suicide in a very visceral way. A series about Grim Reapers who try to prevent them. It's an odd choice for a TV series.

Apologies - I'm way off topic here.

Loni

@ZettelDistraction said:
There are many interpretations-perhaps eating the strawberry was a distraction from the problem of survival that the protagonist, whom the reader might recognize, has apparently given up on. The pleasure of eating a strawberry or the more difficult and painful attempt to find a way out--which of these alternatives is more meaningful? Perhaps the koan suggests the potential of pain to indicate what is most important.

It mights be, you are right, and I would agree if I did not know Bouddhisme Zen. The only thing that matters in Zen is the moment, right here, right now. "You are only a human belonging of a living world in constant movement. Just sit down, and observe it." While eating a strawberry, he forgets about life, death, ineluctable end. Nature will kill you, because it is how it works. But before that, it offers you something. Stop panicking about things you can't change. I think, from my (relative and small) knowledge of Japanese Zen secte (because that is the origin of this koan) that the vign, the tigers and the mice eating the vign are metaphors of the process of life.

Thank you for the poem I process it in my lair until I extract something, I will maybe ask you some question later.

@GeoEng51 said:
Thanks for sharing that poem; I liked it. It seems a meditation on changing circumstances and changing perspectives. In the end, it is still just perspective - until we fall and even then, only when we hit the bottom, that it is consequence.

Maybe that is just my mood. I started watching a Korean TV drama/series last night that deals with suicide in a very visceral way. A series about Grim Reapers who try to prevent them. It's an odd choice for a TV series.

Apologies - I'm way off topic here.

Wow, a serie I should not see, so. Thank you for sharing your impression about the poem, it will help me to understand it

Trying to get back to the topic :
Right now, I am changing my files names into zettel ids, to enforc me to create more context when linking my zettels. Tuesday, my son will be in vacation with me, so we'll take a look into Chihiro again. I'll note archetypes there.

ZettelDistraction

@Loni said:

@ZettelDistraction said:

... Perhaps the koan suggests the potential of pain to indicate what is most important.

It mights be, you are right, and I would agree if I did not know Bouddhisme Zen.

In that case I'll stick to math (which I keep mostly secret), technical notes on LaTeX macros and my execrable cartoons.

Loni

@ZettelDistraction said:
In that case I'll stick to math (which I keep mostly secret), technical notes on LaTeX macros and my execrable cartoons.

Forbidden operation.
Operator needed to confront points of view and find some truth.
Error code: 403

Keep on confronting me.

I am assertive, but if I would wait approbation without question, I would adopt a stupid chihuahua, or a dumb labrador.

You are neither stupid, nor dumb.

As I said, without the perticular Zen context, I would agree with your interpretation. I carry mine, you carry yours, I will listen your arguments and we will learn something in the process.

I add that I am dumb when it comes to interpretation. I see the "how" but not the "why", unless I have time to proceed. My brain looks anywhere, but not where it should have. As a result, I often finish with bizarre interpretations. So, most of the time, you'll be more accurate than I will be.

Don't hide into your nest, or I will pull it down fiber by fiber. It's a kind of reflexe, someone I really care about react usualy just like you. And don't say that your drawings are exercrable, because I like them a lot. I am an artist, I can't have bad taste. Understood ?

Sascha

It might be the westerner's mind but I don't think a koan answers a question or is a riddle to be solved. It is rather a confrontation and however you deal with the confrontation is not part of the koan but rather part of you.

The koan gives no hint to the correct behavior. The man just eats the strawberry and observes the taste. And I am just listening to a story that end with a question.

So, the lesson learned from this koan is rather to learn to observe than to impose one's already existing value judgement of what is right and wrong.

Loni

@Sascha:
So, the lesson learned from this koan is rather to learn to observe than to impose one's already existing value judgement of what is right and wrong.

I did not see the "right and wrong" notion in the koan. Maybe with the mice, which can be white and black on some versions, but it can be interpreted as the balance between opposite and in all things, or the passage between states.

It might be the westerner's mind but I don't think a koan answers a question or is a riddle to be solved. It is rather a confrontation and however you deal with the confrontation is not part of the koan but rather part of you.

Is it a direct reaction of my last message ? Because yes, the confrontation part is mine, no doubt However, to confront and discuss interpretations and meanings also gives interest to texts. Koans functions seem to help approching the satori state. It is made to turn them in order to find something.

The koan gives no hint to the correct behavior. The man just eats the strawberry and observes the taste. And I am just listening to a story that end with a question.

Indeed. Seizing the moment. The story could be the strawberry itself.

Sascha

So, I should -if I understand it right :

Those are all good options. I judge such options through the lens of usefulness: Can I create a tool that I can add to my tool box?

Make a note about Haku in a wiki-fandom style to remember important points that interest me in the film.

I'd rather suggest to write something more analytic. Fandom-Wikis are to me too documentary. Of course, I use them as sources myself. But in my own Zettelkaten I want to create story-tool infused psychological analysis of characters. So, for example, I create a functional character model for a character if I want to get access to the functional aspects of the character. Or I will create a symbolic analysis and connect it to my symbolism-area of my Zettelkasten.

I want the material to be pre-cooked, so I can just eat it.

A note : Analyze and find patterns of archetypes present in Chihiro's story. The Pure Child (I think ?) The Lost One, The Nasty Old Baba… I have a lot of work !

I do that, too. The instances and the Archetypes inform each other. In the end, I like to have ripped open everything that is important to a character, but at the same time give me something I can connect with aesthetically. For that, an epigraph can be good. But you can draw very well. If I had that ability I'd create a nice drawing to make something iconic.

The Archetypes of course need a foundation in real characters. So, each instance is an opportunity to deepen my understanding of the archetype and therefore improves my repertoire to deal with the archetypical layer.

A note : How to inject all this new objects, concepts and ideas into a viable story. "A wizard's mistake" with pattern and archetypes to add fuel.

I like this a lot: It is similar to programming: There is the code (the story) but there is a lot of commentary and test-code. I write fiction and make heavy, heavy use of references to other non-fiction notes and pretend that everything I write needs to be backed up by sources.

This might be stiffling for some people. But it could be managed by separating the writing and the integration into the Zettelkasten structure. Similar to the separating of writing and editing.

Brandon Sanderson said that the outlining and structuring happens anyhow. Some writer's do it in the front end (like him) and others do it in the back end (like Stephen King). To me, this is writing testcode that prepares the editing. So, how to fit it in the whole process might be dependent on your type.

A note to see if this "archetypal story" can interact with the ideas I have for the story of Ombre and Asura, yes, no, how, does it work, why ?

Ah, see above.

Psychological notes : difference between knowing/understanding, trauma, redemption, non-fictional material.

Yes! Perhaps, I am biased. But if stories are not coherent psychologically their are not coherent at all. To me, that is the ability to write real characters. Perhaps, the psychological layer is the one that cannot be bent like the natural laws of the world or its history. Anything can be fiction exept the psychological laws.

Art is about choices.
The three examples you gave were from films. They were relevant in this context. But I really want to remind us that we write texts. We made the choice, conscienciously, to convey story through writing.

Yes. And I agree with your reasoning. However, I concentrate on story. So, I pretty much ignore the medium since I like to see pattern. But: We as humans are hypervisual. So, I like to use imagery as the backbone. Another but: If we see Saturn Devouring His Son is it actually visual or visceral? I think the later.

Campbell's monomyth is a psychoanalyst book.

Mh. I am not so sure about that. To me, it is a book that looks through story at the psyche. But whenever you do that, you are accessing the self-similarity of the world and therefore transcend those domains.

My current position is that the monomyth (the hero's journey to be specific) is actually a model of completeness that connects the ego, its death and the self. So, if one writes a book using the hero's journey as a template one is bound to write about this topic.

I played with your drawing of conceptual and symbolic association since this afternoon and maybe I don't understand something, because I have difficulties to figure how it looks like. It seems you elaborate a sophisticated visual association language, don't you ? What form does it take ?

Mh. It is hard to tell. I try to create something similar like Joseph Campbell but instead of coming up with a self-contained or perhaps complete model of something I'd like to map out the landscape of symbolic meaning. If words and their meaning is something like assembler I'd like to come up with a higher language to speak in a more complex way about stories.

Risky supposition here :
The more I read about your work, the more I feel that the thing you like the most is to create symbolic patterns of meanings, like threads weaving a fabric. It is a way of seeing a story, but if I was your teacher, I would ask you to write a short children story. You are insightfull and have laser eyes on many things, but I feel like you miss the "event" part maybe (big "maybe" here) ?

You are absolutely correct. But I am writing stories and text fragments since the age of 8. So, I am already following your advice. (Albeit: It is not deliberate practice since I don't seek feedback frequently. But I will get there.)

@ZettelDistraction said:
Campbell's Hero's Journey is a dead end, in my opinion. At the risk of misinterpreting the Zen koan about the tiger and the strawberry, I prefer the "existential vice" to the hero's journey.

I think that the Journey is dead is part of the death of the modern man (women included this time).

"Why we should read a novel, when the serie/film will add a lot of the missing visual informations from the book ?"
I don't know the solution. But I will keep studying novels and litterature rather than read scenarists learning books.

Novel is to film whatever meat + salat is to a proteinshake. It is pre-digested.

Novel is a representation of the linear narration of one speaker (you can also listen to it withough changing what I said before)