Share with us what is happening in your ZK this week. September 27, 2024

ZettelDistraction

In this example, we started in PanWriter.

What does logseq say about this?

We could live with this, but then we have to post-process files to convert each logseq property:: to a Pandoc-compatible YAML property:. That means changing the workflow, though now I lean toward a Python script. Extractive commercial (and probably illegitimate) interests dog my Windows OS with intrusive busybody-ware. (Never attribute to incompetence what you can attribute to malice, greed, and self-interest.)

I mistakenly trusted Zettlr to adhere to the markdown standard, but the screenshot below shows that Zettlr falls short of PanWriter and logseq. Zettlr cannot render markdown either to Caesar or God, for that matter, and so, @GeoEng51, I owe you and Jesus an apology (Mark 12:17).

Andy

@ZettelDistraction said:

No wonder my markdown zettels "disappear" in Logseq. As @Andy put it, "Logseq is opinionated." That understatement that doesn't do justice to the injustice Logseq does to software compatibility. Markdown can go to Hell, apparently.

More precisely, I said "extremely opinionated", which I hope is less of an understatement!

ZettelDistraction

@ZettelDistraction said:
As @Andy put it, "Logseq is opinionated."

@Andy said:
More precisely, I said "extremely opinionated," which I hope is less of an understatement!

Apology number two! I am unfit for civilized company. The forgotten adjective raises a question for Markdown Lint, which I have installed as a plugin in VSCode: does logseq's markdown cause Markdown Lint to generate errors? Which errors?

Aside from running the logseq compatible markdown examples for validation from a syntax validator to feel validated, logseq's "extremely opinionated" choices impose a structure on notes that push them toward concision. My Zettelkasten, now approaching one thousand notes, feels more like a repetitive chaos littered with abandoned numbering systems and misleading keywords.

"The greatest life satisfaction comes from accomplishment," said the founder of Morita Therapy, psychologist Shoma Morita. What have I accomplished? A disorganized, pointlessly entangled system of embedded, buried roots, hyphae, and mycelium. When I add a note to the Zettelkasten, I link it to others, but it's too discouraging to follow them again. My practice now is to write and, if I remember, feed whatever I've written into the Zettelkasten to molder and disintegrate. Here, I have "plans," there I have "projects," and elsewhere, I have "to-do lists." I veer from mathematics, programming, writing, amateur radio, notes on philosophy without the Wissenschaft, half-hearted ventures into classical literature, failed attempts to learn a few languages, and doggerel.

The impulse to overhaul and obliterate my previous work stems from the existential dread at the bottom of systematic note-taking: the psychologically unsustainable realization that one lacks a single original thought, or worse, a single interesting thought. The underexplored powers of ignoring, forgetting, and failing to ask questions arose for a reason (Geuss, Raymond. Outside Ethics).

I plan to run my examples through Markdown Lint to see where logseq's markdown requirements violate the standard. A plugin for logseq to convert its markdown to other formats through Pandoc looks promising.

ZettelDistraction

The markdown below is valid. Is it compatible with logseq?

---
id:: Well202410051325
title:: Well202410051325 well well well
reference-section-title:: References
---

- ## well well well

  We cannot start with a single h1 header without Markdown Lint complaining. We must start at h2.

- ## SEE ALSO

  To use logseq markdown h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, and h6 subsection headers must come after a dash. Zettlr doesn't render this correctly, though PanWriter does. logseq renders a subset of markdown in which the list is the basic structure. Also, SHIFT-ENTER must be used within logseq to keep the text within the section.

  - ### Maybe Zettlr cannot handle logseq markdown

    Nevertheless, logseq-style properties aren't compatible with Zettlr or PanDoc. logseq does not recognize the enclosing triple-dash standard for YAML headers. logseq also identifies the title with the filename of the markdown file instead of using the id. That could be my problem.

- ## References

The previewer shows the following.

What does logseq do with this?

It skipped the sentence after - ## well well wel and then caused my computer to crash. Looking at the subdirectories that logseq left in my Zettelkasten directory, like litter tossed in the street, is bad for the stomach. I don't know if I have the patience to continue. I'm not sure I can trust what it considers "pages." There are too many of them to be helpful. The software is somewhat sensitive to changing markdown, and it makes it too easy to futz with the abstract syntax tree inadvertently. Too bad.

ZettelDistraction

My machine is running again. logseq does not know what to do with a YAML header.

It's not worth continuing.

ZettelDistraction

Order of Condemnation: Zettlr

Court Findings

Upon review of progress in personal note management and evaluation of current tools, the Court has determined that the software known as Zettlr no longer serves the Petitioner's needs. With the recent development that Obsidian version 1.6.7 is now operational to the satisfaction of the Court—and, in fact, likely has been sufficient for several prior versions—the Court finds that Obsidian meets the Petitioner's functional requirements far better than Zettlr.

The Petitioner has expressed that Obsidian, with its efficient and responsive user interface, outperforms the heartbreakingly slow interface of Zettlr. The Petitioner has submitted the following pseudocode template for new pages in Obsidian.

---
id: <unique immutable ID>
title: <unique immutable ID> <H1 header title>
reference-section-title: References
---
# <H1 header title>

## SEE ALSO

## References

The Petitioner has indicated plans to migrate necessary assets, including modified Pandoc files and snippets, and convert these to aText macros. The Court thanks @GeoEng51 for an Amicus Curiae Brief mentioning the macro expansion software aText (vide comments on this thread). The Court also thanks @Andy for an Amicus Curiae Brief in which the phrase "extremely opinionated" appears (ibid).

Charges and Sentence

The Court finds that Zettlr version 3.2.1's abysmally slow user interface has cost the Petitioner weeks of unwritten notes and misdirected their efforts toward a "wild goose chase" involving the "extremely opinionated" and ultimately fragile logseq. Such failures amount to a gross impediment to productivity and user satisfaction.

Therefore, the Court now condemns Zettlr to Condign Punishment: deletion from all machines owned by the Petitioner, effective immediately.

This Order is final and binding. Zettlr is to be removed—permanently, without reprieve or appeal.

SO ORDERED.
The Honorable ZettelDistraction.

ZettelDistraction

The revised template code works with the templater plugin for Obsidian.

<%* let alpha_keyword = await tp.system.prompt("Enter the alpha keyword for this note:"); 
let unique_id = alpha_keyword + tp.date.now("YYYYMMDDHHmm"); 
let user_title = await tp.system.prompt("Enter the title for this note:"); -%> 
--- 
id: <%* tR += unique_id %> 
title: <%* tR += unique_id %> <%* tR += user_title %>
reference-section-title: References 
--- 
# <%* tR += user_title %>

## SEE ALSO ## References 

<%* tp.file.rename(unique_id); %>

ctietze

For all intents and purposes, whatever Logseq is doing, that's not YAML frontmatter, which is a clearly defined syntax. It's a proprietary format they picked (for whatever reason). More feature requests with the devs in their forums are in order, it seems; from a superficial web search there's some, but not a lot of activity around the topic.

@ZettelDistraction if your computer is as old as time itself, maybe try to warm up to a timeless editor? You could sink your teeth into Emacs or NeoVim for a week. They have very little overhead to run at all. What took 200% of available RAM in 1970 is now a rounding error Zettelkasten plugins exist for both.

ZettelDistraction

@ctietze Thank you for confirming that logseq does not respect the YAML standard. Failure to pay respect to YAML offends my precious sensibilities, thanks to an emotional sensitivity to machines. Concerning Logseq's refusal to display blocks of text that don't start with the markdown list metacharacter, I'd like to offer my condolences or say good luck with that.

As for my aging computer, I wouldn't say it is ancient, though it is older than the Pandemic. It was old enough that I had to modify the Windows Registry to enable it to upgrade to Windows 11. I recently threw out an aging Epson 7640 and replaced it with an HP color laserjet. I hadn't bothered to uninstall the software that came with the Epson. Leaving a software updater installed in the background for a peripheral I no longer own did not help. I lost a lot of time thanks to Zettlr's slower-than-owl-dung user interface.†

However, Obsidian is much faster than Zettlr, and in the space of an evening, I have two workable template plugins that work much better in Obsidian than the workflow I had in Zettlr. Good riddance. The exercise to try out logseq and then switch from Zettlr to Obsidian was worthwhile: I have the YAML and markdown format template more or less where I want it and only face updates to around 1000 Zettels. I am not looking forward to updating my Zettel template and software configuration notes on GitHub. Obsidian changed its API, but this seems to have stabilized after a few years, and the template plugin is flexible and robust enough to automate page setup and the annotation of wikilinks.

I will have to store the Obsidian settings somewhere in case of a climate-change-induced weather catastrophe or worse.

Switching to Emacs or NeoVim for the Zettelkasten would be too discouraging and too big a change. I cannot type Emacs key combinations without breaking my fingers -- I have tried using Emacs over the years. I have as much chance of mastering Emacs as chopsticks-- my hands aren't suited to it. A Japanese individual tried to force my fingers into the correct position to use chopsticks, a skill that presumes precisely the freedom of movement and the anatomical configuration needed for Emacs. The episode was a failure painful enough to be termed a "learning experience." Not that anyone cares: I am a dyed-in-the-wool vim user, and still, I wouldn't use it for a Zettelkasten.

† Owls do not defecate: they cast owl pellets formed from the indigestible portions of their prey. Hence the phrase, "slower than owl s---."

Edmund

@Will said:
It is interesting to read a book on reading (How to Read a Book) while reading a book on writing (The Art and Craft of Feature Writing).

Thank you for sharing your insights from "How to Read a Book". It's worth reading. But it takes time to capture notes while reading. I've used my favourite tool to create a Literature Map:

Edmund

@Will said:
What is "Zettelkastenrunde?" Why only 26 - 29? And 29 is on fire?

"Zettelkastenrunde" is a self-organized learning comunity. We have an one hour online meeting every month. You'll find more about at: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/13030250/

Sometimes it is easier to show and talk than to have an exchange in a forum.

Will

@Edmund, do you create these wonderful mindmaps from note or live while reading? This makes me think I could justify a new iPad Pro to the wife.

My aversion to social networks prevents me from signing up for Linked In. "Zettelkastenrunde" sounds interesting, though.

Edmund

@Will said:
@Edmund, do you create these wonderful mindmaps from note or live while reading?

1. I prefer to read real books printed on paper.

2. I always use a marker:
   

3. When I've finished reading a chapter or the whole book, I start to copy my "important words" from marking to SimpleMind manualy:
   

4. I start to connect related items.
5. I add connections to notes from my Zettelkasten.

This makes me think I could justify a new iPad Pro to the wife.

;-) Yes. But the method to create Literature Maps also works with my PC.

My aversion to social networks prevents me from signing up for Linked In. "Zettelkastenrunde" sounds interesting, though.

Do you know another place to meet online in an english speeking community?

Will

@Edmund said:
1. I prefer to read real books printed on paper.
2. I always use a marker:
3. When I've finished reading a chapter or the whole book, I start to
4. I start to connect related items.
5. I add connections to notes from my Zettelkasten.

This is one sweet workflow. It looks like you squeezed a bunch out of Mortimer. I love the "Find the important words and through them come to terms with the author" section. I just finished this section.

My aversion to social networks prevents me from signing up for Linked In. "Zettelkastenrunde" sounds interesting, though.

Do you know another place to meet online in an English-speaking community?

No, I don't know of another place. Should we start one?

Edmund

@Will said:
No, I don't know of another place. Should we start one?

In English? But I'm sure there's already a community out there that we need to find. A learning circle, a WOL circle (Working Out Loud) or whatever. And who may be interested to join from this community at Forum Zettelkasten?

Loni

@Edmund said:

@Will said:
No, I don't know of another place. Should we start one?

In English? But I'm sure there's already a community out there that we need to find. A learning circle, a WOL circle (Working Out Loud) or whatever. And who may be interested to join from this community at Forum Zettelkasten?

What would be the difference with this forum?

If the main idea is that we need more interactivity, we could try something like a Discord server, to create realtime written communication and enable some voice communication as well. It would be convenient, as it is a communication plateform, nobody would be sollicitated for anything that is not their choosen servers.

ctietze

FWIW: People from the r/Zettelkasten Subreddit created a Discord server years ago, but it's as good as dead.

I personally believe that "hanging out" all day in a chat to talk about Zettelkasten does not have the same appeal as a weekly get-together, a time-boxed appointment, to bring everyone up to speed and discuss recent issues.

@Will does a great job with these weekly check-ins. Discord with real time chat and video could be an enhancement -- if there's a regular time of the week to attend as I believe. If my assumption is true, a Jitsi, BigBlueButton, or whatever video call link could work just as well once the appointment exists!

Loni

@ctietze said:
FWIW: People from the r/Zettelkasten Subreddit created a Discord server years ago, but it's as good as dead.

I personally believe that "hanging out" all day in a chat to talk about Zettelkasten does not have the same appeal as a weekly get-together, a time-boxed appointment, to bring everyone up to speed and discuss recent issues.

@Will does a great job with these weekly check-ins. Discord with real time chat and video could be an enhancement -- if there's a regular time of the week to attend as I believe. If my assumption is true, a Jitsi, BigBlueButton, or whatever video call link could work just as well once the appointment exists!

I agree with you : every day rendez-vous would'nt help. I once participated to a Discord with other fiction writers. Telling people that we have done that or this through the day could be motivating, but less productive than this weekly review where anyone can share sparkles.

But I was asking because I tried to understand Edmund's proposition. For example, I would'nt participate into video call. That would be overhelming to me.

As myself, I really like this weekly review, Will. I like to have to synthesize what I've done this week and see what others are into, even if I don't always comment.

GeoEng51

@Loni said:
As myself, I really like this weekly review, @Will . I like to have to synthesize what I've done this week and see what others are into, even if I don't always comment.

I agree entirely. This level of interaction suits my needs. I've tried various Discord groups and found them a waste of time - little return and too much distraction.

ZettelDistraction

@GeoEng51 said:

@Loni said:
As myself, I really like this weekly review, @Will . I like to have to synthesize what I've done this week and see what others are into, even if I don't always comment.

I agree entirely. This level of interaction suits my needs. I've tried various Discord groups and found them a waste of time - little return and too much distraction.

Agreed. Discord groups create discord.