Photography is knowledge work

System · 8:47AM

This discussion was created from comments split from: The Complete Guide to Atomic Note-Taking by @ctietze

Exact point in the previous discussion this was branched off from:
https://forum.zettelkasten.de/discussion/comment/24003/#Comment_24003

andang76 · October 11

@Sascha said:

My observation that there is too much emphasis on "one's own voice" and "one's own view".

From my point of view, this is what made all my note-taking eventually transform from having a small Wikipedia to the system I currently have.
It’s possible that someone took the concept of subjectivity too literally, but for me it was a fundamental mental switch to move from representing information to representing thought in my notes.
Of course, you always have to make distinctions depending on the context. In some branches of knowledge, you can’t be too subjective—a logical argument remains a logical argument. Subjectivity, at most in this case, comes into play in deciding which problems in your own life you apply that piece of knowledge to. There are different requirements of truth in different areas.

Besides, "my point of view", is alway a frame with high risk of biaes, of course.

I don't understand. You mean the above?

In the video accompanying the article, you showed that even though you used a process that develops “objective” thinking (I’m not sure if that’s the correct term) on the Reverse Flynn Effect, you didn’t settle for—or even focus on—simply capturing the “truth” of that effect. Instead, you made a subjective derivation toward what was useful for you (for your own use and for your children).

I really liked that part, and for me it represents an important “my own view” that I often develop in my Zettelkasten.
The problem, however, is that this dynamic is made explicit only in the last few minutes of the final piece of this huge work, and I fear that not many people reach that last piece with the mental freshness to notice that small detail. I’m writing this specifically to highlight how important it is :-)

From my experience reading various questions, I’m afraid many have interpreted “my own view” as simply paraphrasing what they read, capturing the “truth” of what they read, and stopping there. That’s a good start, but it can be done better. You can capture that idea and then introduce it in the sphere of your personal needs, goals, beliefs, perspectives, and so on.

The photography metaphor works great as many level 2 approaches work great. However, as a metaphor it still is subject the the level 2 problems as layed out in the article.

I think with photography you could reach highest level, too.

I’m a photographer. A very, very mediocre photographer, actually :-) but I’ve studied a significant amount of photographic theory in the past.
I am absolutely convinced that a photographer (and skilled photographers are like this) can reach the same maximum level you presented. The same, of course, applies to a software developer. A good photographer learns to think about reality in terms of photographs before the shot, before technique and heuristics. The same goes for a developer with his "thinking in objects".
At the highest levels, I see the same concept of “mastery” across all three profiles, and therefore the same applies to the metaphors.

Now, as I said, I’m a poor photographer and wouldn’t be able to teach others how to reach that level of maturity, but noticing the same dynamic in experts across the three different contexts (system modeler, photographer, developer), I trust that even using a model for photography it’s possible to reach the final stage. I kind of know how a photographer's mind works, even though I don’t have a very good one :-)
I don’t have the knowledge resources to provide a complete representation of such a model, but I’ve gathered some promising elements. For example, two blocks you mentioned in your article (“idea in context” and “structure”) I have cited as photographic patterns somewhere as portrait photography and landscape photography.

A photographic model could be useful for minds that are more accustomed to thinking “in images” rather than through decomposition, for example.

I am not 100% confident in the completeness of the inventory of knowledge building blocks. But the underlying reality of knowledge isn't anything that you can avoid. Take arguments a an example: There are languages that work (first/second order logic, syllogisms, etc.). All of them are annoying if you are not in love with math. But you can use some vivid metaphor about logic and argumentation to understand it. The same is true for any knowledge building block.

I’ve been thinking about the topic of adequacy and completeness of knowledge representation through blocks over the past few days. Even though I deeply feel that it doesn’t work 100%, I have to accept that representing knowledge in discrete units inevitably involves some approximation.
After all, it’s the same effect as converting an analog signal into digital.
From a practical point of view, if what you get is sufficient for your purposes, that’s perfectly fine—you don’t need to reconstruct everything exactly in the representation.
In fact, I would even say that, at a certain point, a reduced but easy-to-apply vocabulary is decidedly better than a very complex one that creates friction in making choices.
The topic of atomicity in Zettelkasten is already considered quite tricky. Adding even more complexity becomes counterproductive. I think that a model of six blocks is quite enough in general. When needed, everyone can add other types of cognitive tools, rather than blocks or, such as patterns or various kinds of mental models, can provide additional support.
For instance, from your article, I explicitly formalized the Problem-Solution pattern, which I often use, but unconsciously. It's a very small pattern that in practice can solve a critical representation many times.

Sascha · October 13

@andang76 said:

@Sascha said:

My observation that there is too much emphasis on "one's own voice" and "one's own view".

From my point of view, this is what made all my note-taking eventually transform from having a small Wikipedia to the system I currently have.
It’s possible that someone took the concept of subjectivity too literally, but for me it was a fundamental mental switch to move from representing information to representing thought in my notes.
Of course, you always have to make distinctions depending on the context. In some branches of knowledge, you can’t be too subjective—a logical argument remains a logical argument. Subjectivity, at most in this case, comes into play in deciding which problems in your own life you apply that piece of knowledge to. There are different requirements of truth in different areas.

Besides, "my point of view", is alway a frame with high risk of biaes, of course.

If it helped you, awesome.

I don't understand. You mean the above?

In the video accompanying the article, you showed that even though you used a process that develops “objective” thinking (I’m not sure if that’s the correct term) on the Reverse Flynn Effect, you didn’t settle for—or even focus on—simply capturing the “truth” of that effect. Instead, you made a subjective derivation toward what was useful for you (for your own use and for your children).

I really liked that part, and for me it represents an important “my own view” that I often develop in my Zettelkasten.
The problem, however, is that this dynamic is made explicit only in the last few minutes of the final piece of this huge work, and I fear that not many people reach that last piece with the mental freshness to notice that small detail. I’m writing this specifically to highlight how important it is :-)

I think we have misunderstanding on terms. You seem to use "subjective" as in you do something to the material that is not found in the text. I use subjective as in the source of truth being the subject ("I like tomatoes.", "I perceive the color as green.")

From my experience reading various questions, I’m afraid many have interpreted “my own view” as simply paraphrasing what they read, capturing the “truth” of what they read, and stopping there. That’s a good start, but it can be done better. You can capture that idea and then introduce it in the sphere of your personal needs, goals, beliefs, perspectives, and so on.

If it was like that. But the many examples that I see is that capturing the idea is not done diligently in the first place.

The photography metaphor works great as many level 2 approaches work great. However, as a metaphor it still is subject the the level 2 problems as layed out in the article.

I think with photography you could reach highest level, too.

If you use photography as a metaphor, you are bound to level 2, because with a metaphor you cannot reach any higher level. You need to develop a model of knowledge to reach level 3.

It seems that you ignore my distinction between model and metaphor.

In fact, I would even say that, at a certain point, a reduced but easy-to-apply vocabulary is decidedly better than a very complex one that creates friction in making choices.
The topic of atomicity in Zettelkasten is already considered quite tricky. Adding even more complexity becomes counterproductive. I think that a model of six blocks is quite enough in general. When needed, everyone can add other types of cognitive tools, rather than blocks or, such as patterns or various kinds of mental models, can provide additional support.

The complexity of the model depends on the complexity of the underlying reality, not on the needs of people first and foremost.

As I explained in the article: Relying on heuristics becomes a problem quickly.

For instance, from your article, I explicitly formalized the Problem-Solution pattern, which I often use, but unconsciously. It's a very small pattern that in practice can solve a critical representation many times.

andang76 · October 13

@Sascha said:

I think we have misunderstanding on terms. You seem to use "subjective" as in you do something to the material that is not found in the text. I use subjective as in the source of truth being the subject ("I like tomatoes.", "I perceive the color as green.")

Oh, it's possible that into traslation italian term "soggettivo" doesn't perfectly map to "subjective". It can sometimes be difficult to translate above-average concepts into another language. "Soggettivo" in italian carries a range of many different nuances.

If you use photography as a metaphor, you are bound to level 2, because with a metaphor you cannot reach any higher level. You need to develop a model of knowledge to reach level 3.

It seems that you ignore my distinction between model and metaphor.

I think that if today I had to rely solely on the photographic model, without any other tools available, I would genuinely aspire to bring it to a level 3 — moving beyond metaphors in a way similar to what you’ve shown.
Over the past few months, I’ve gathered a few seeds that suggest this potential.

Unfortunately, I didn’t know about the Zettelkasten method when I studied photography somewhat seriously. If I had had the understanding of Zettelkasten that I have now, I almost certainly would have tried to map the photographic mindset onto it — and I would have learned photography in a much more effective and, above all, long-lasting way than I did back then.

I don’t think I’ll ever take on that challenge, since by now I’ve also developed too many concepts about Zettelkasten. In particular, I think I’ve completely exhausted the topic of atomicity

Still, I’ve come to believe that (1) it’s possible, and (2) it’s not perfectly equivalent to a formal or structural (block/pattern-based) model, since in photography the concepts of representation through framing are much more relevant than decomposition — as well as the idea of the lens placed between the eye and the observed reality.

I haven’t overlooked the leap between metaphor and model — I’m truly convinced that one could develop a similar framework drawn from photographic expertise, mastery, far beyond the metaphor.
Photography is a remarkably broad theoretical and formal field — there’s a lot of stuff to draw from.
Again, it would have different potential than the rational decomposition typical of block-based models. Maybe it is not the best mindset for decomposable knowledge (systems modeling, reasoning modeling, for example).

Here I should call upon the support of a photographer with great experience — someone who has gone beyond heuristics and principles, and would be able to clearly explain how their mind works before, during, and after taking a shot. How they translate their idea about the world into an image with that meaning, or how they capture a theory into a complete portfolio o photobook.

Just as, quite naturally — since that’s my line of work — I’ve brought much of OOP into Zettelkasten.

It’s an idea that fascinates me, but at the moment I don’t have the resources to devote to it

My message is meant as a note of encouragement for those who don’t feel comfortable with block-based models: if framing comes more naturally to you, give it a try and share your experience

Sascha · October 15

I think that if today I had to rely solely on the photographic model, without any other tools available, I would genuinely aspire to bring it to a level 3 — moving beyond metaphors in a way similar to what you’ve shown.

It is analytically impossible to move beyond level 2, because photography is not dealing with knowledge. You only can move to level 3 if you become the scuba diver. Another term is "first principle thinking" that describes what you have to do.

Level 2 outcomes can be amazing. I was, for example, impressed by the clarity of thinking that Morgan shows in her video with her mother. But there are natural talents that can party, do drugs and still fight on the highest level in MMA. That doesn't mean that this is sound practice to just stop at level 2.

My message is meant as a note of encouragement for those who don’t feel comfortable with block-based models: if framing comes more naturally to you, give it a try and share your experience

Heuristics and metaphors will only take you to a certain point. The problem with your encouragement is that leaning towards what feels comfortable is creating the very stagnation that many experience.

The notes you are writing (more precisely: you can write) are a tight correlate of the quality of your thinking. In this section, I wrote about this:

Critical thinking skill is the ability to analyse available observations, evidence, and arguments to form reasonable judgments. A key element of critical thinking is to identify and evaluate empirical observations, arguments and counterarguments. That means that three out of the six knowledge building blocks are essential to master for critical thinking and, therefore, being able to make reasonable judgments.

Systems thinking skill is the ability to analyse and make sense of systems, especially complex systems. Systems are specific models. A stock-flow model is a method for modeling a system, for example.

Both of these thinking skills are based on your ability to identify key concepts, empirical observations, arguments, counterarguments, hypotheses and models. Mastering atomicity goes hand in hand with mastering basic levels of critical thinking and systems thinking.

Avoiding mastering the building blocks means avoiding developing critical thinking and system thinking skills. Critical thinking is term for one's ability to observe and create the flow of truth from empirical evidence, arguments to one's opinion. System thinking is a term for one's ability to observe patterns of feedback loops, relationship of wholes and parts and make sense of complexity.

andang76 · October 15

It is analytically impossible to move beyond level 2, because photography is not dealing with knowledge. You only can move to level 3 if you become the scuba diver. Another term is "first principle thinking" that describes what you have to do.

(I translate using chatgpt, too long...)

mmm, no I don't think it is true. Photographers with their work observe, identify, model, and need to represent aspects of both of the "world" and their mind, using their particular language. And with this work can trasfer their capture and development to other or themselves in the future. It is dealing with knowledge. Different from other approaches, but it is knowledge. The derivable part by the observed reality, the part involved during the process, including the own photographer’s intentions, and finally what remains as the photo’s meaning and how it will be interpreted by whoever looks at it. That’s a lot of stuff
Good photographers are scuba drivers. They don't watch, they think. There is a relevant thought, involved during the process and represented by the photo, when a photo is taken (and also when it’s decided that it’s not worth taking or it’s discarded after made).
Photography is another process that let you observe, model and represent the world (and adding the author’s reflections and ideas). Physical world, if we consider "conventional" photography, but it should be simple to translate that "framing process" to metaphysical field, using an abstract camera.
The evidence that photography doesn’t stop at level 2 is simply that photographers that don’t take photos at level 2 (at least the good ones don’t) exist. They go well beyond that. Even in my experience as a mediocre photographer, it’s not enough to just know and apply a handful of heuristics and principles — that’s merely the beginning of the path toward mastery, not the highest aspiration.

I probably haven’t managed — and still can’t manage — to explain what I have in mind clearly enough.
I’ll try to express it, in the future, with something much more solid in hand, but I need to work on it a bit. I have to turn ideas and intuitions into a structure that is not only solid, but above all clear. It’s a stimulating challenge.

Let me give a brief preview, an anticipation, though.

To have a meaningful discussion, it’s necessary to structure it in an orderly way, developing at least the following points:

Try to understand why we are having this whole discussion, about atomicity: we need tools to develop, model, and represent ideas and knowledge, and we’re thinking of creating a framework, good enough, to organize the use of these tools for a specific purpose. Not higher purposes, in my case
Try to understand how a real photographer, in the exercise of their work, uses their mind to perform a similar activity — that is, to bring forth, model, and represent ideas through photographs. I believe part of the misunderstanding lies here, we consider different its maximum reachaable depth.
See how that photographer’s perspective can be transferred into our context. I believe it’s possible, and also useful and interesting. Complete? I don’t know yet — probably not universal. Still, here, good enough, not at the point to state that "knowledge is photos". Unrealistic, and neither I don't need that for a real potential use.
Understand if there are any gaps. I don’t think they lie in the photographer’s work — they perform it quite naturally — but rather in whether something gets lost in translating the whole model (not the metaphor) into the realm of idea and knowledge development.
Separate the different scopes of this effort. I can use photography as a metaphor to explain difficult concepts (for example, to show which cases of atomization work or don’t work) — and we agree that this is a low-level, simple metaphor practice— but it’s not the only possible way of thinking about photography within the Zettelkasten. Another scope is how I could really use it privately, in my own thinking, thinking in the whole as a photographer. Personally, at my current stage, I no longer think in terms of frames or blocks or even objects, but I've internalized the development of abstract units of thought (which I call Points), which simultaneously display different behaviors depending on how inspiration strikes me at that moment. Sometimes they emerge as decompositions, other times as snapshots, other times they show something other.

At the actual stage, I’ve gathered strong clues — from the experiences I’ve had in the three worlds I’ve practiced — that make me believe that the photographer, in their craft, undergoes an evolution similar to that of the other two figures (the modeler and the developer). The beginner approaches photography by “learning it from the camera’s instruction manual” , then begins to acquire simple rules and apply them mechanically without understanding them. The next step is to understand the reasons behind the rules and start applying them consciously (even knowing when to break them) as principles. The photographers can further evolve by learning and developing higher-order models beyond simple heuristics, and ultimately reach mastery — being able to see photographs directly within their flow of thought.
And in all our discussion about levels, I also think we’ve forgotten that there is a level beyond mastery — that of "genius". The level at which an author not only performs their modeling at the highest level, but also affects reality itself by creating something really new, never seen. And the photographer, like the other figures, can rise to that level too.

Personally, I find it stimulating to identify the elements of this journey.
All three figures, after all, observe a reality and simultaneously reduce it into a model, following their own working framework, and they can reach the same levels doing that.
As I said, I’ll take some time to develop all these points — I believe it’s going to be a long process.

andang76 · October 15

@Sascha said:

Avoiding mastering the building blocks means avoiding developing critical thinking and system thinking skills. Critical thinking is term for one's ability to observe and create the flow of truth from empirical evidence, arguments to one's opinion. System thinking is a term for one's ability to observe patterns of feedback loops, relationship of wholes and parts and make sense of complexity.

Probably, but there are important points to consider:

critical thinking and system thinking aren't the whole knowledge. My intention is not to narrow, neither mainly apply the idea to these particular fields.
use of other mindsets don't preclude analytical processes and outcomes. Since I couldn't manage the task myself, I had ChatGPT "count" them, and it highlighted at least thirty photography genres. Among the photographic genres, some are highly analytical, and several of them are full of patterns or "modules". The very concept of patterns actually originated in the field of architecture, even closer to the visual arts than to theories of knowledge. Architectural photography, street photography for example, but even technical photography and still life has a strong analytical nature. Once I was surprised to discover how strict and rigorous advertising photography is. The purpose of naturalistic/documentary photography, another example, is "something to demostrate", it is not an artistic exercise, and it has its principles. I'll give a very silly example: if you want to show that a lion is a carnivore, it's effective to do so by photographing it while hunting. It's a kind of visual theorem (maybe it isn't because so simple,but my intention is to convey the basic idea). You can't take random shots to lions as a documentarist :-), you need to "decompose" animal life in a consistent way, if you want to effectively represent it.

andang76 · October 15

I'm wondering if anyone else is reading this exchange of ideas (which is very valuable to me)

Sascha · October 16

I don't get why you are that insistent on such an idea. You are not dealing with my individual points. This is the core issue:

It is analytically impossible to move beyond level 2, because photography is not dealing with knowledge. You only can move to level 3 if you become the scuba diver. Another term is "first principle thinking" that describes what you have to do.

You have to directly deal with knowledge itself. Anything else is not sufficient to reach level 3.

Being the scuba diver means that you directly deal with the elements of knowledge.

If anyone can point to my fallacy or the misunderstanding, I'd be happy.

andang76 · October 16

@Sascha said:
I don't get why you are that insistent on such an idea. You are not dealing with my individual points. This is the core issue:

It is analytically impossible to move beyond level 2, because photography is not dealing with knowledge. You only can move to level 3 if you become the scuba diver. Another term is "first principle thinking" that describes what you have to do.

You have to directly deal with knowledge itself. Anything else is not sufficient to reach level 3.

Being the scuba diver means that you directly deal with the elements of knowledge.

If anyone can point to my fallacy or the misunderstanding, I'd be happy.

Are you convinced that photography doesn’t deal with knowledge? That taking photographs is purely an exercise of eyes and fingers?
That’s not a problem for me.
We simply start from two different visions of that world.
Photography is a language, is a way of modeling world, has models, photos have meanings, they can express interpretation of reality, author feelings, and even both in the same frame.

Honestly, I don’t understand the arrogance of a post like that.

I’m not attacking the proposal you presented. I’m not invalidating it.
Your value is safe.
I’m trying to have a conversation to see if something else interesting might emerge.
If it annoys you, I’m sorry; for me, it was still useful, and I remain happy.

I might have made some imperfect logical arguments, but honestly, who cares?
1) We don’t share the same cultural background, we don’t speak the same language, we’re dealing with a complex topic. Mistakes, misunderstandings, and different perceptions of aspects that don’t mix well seem normal to me. It's not like talking about milk and coffee.
2) I’m not a philosopher; I’m someone who is enjoying developing a practical model to improve their own practice.I can tolerate very well both the roughness of other people's ideas and, above all, my own. Even partial ones could work perfectly fine; I just need to write notes, not the Bible.
3) If there aren’t any valid ideas, someone can discard them, trusting your authority.
Perhaps someone else, starting from my mistaken ones, will develop better ideas.

It is all an approximation. even yours. There is no scuba diver of knowledge.
We are trying to reach models. Simplifications.
Anyway, if the problem is the scuba diver, there can be the photographer above the water’s surface and the underwater photographer. They really see very different worlds, not in a metaphorical way, and this happens because scuba photographer has a really different mindset from the amateur above the water. The quality of his pictures reflect his cognitive skills.

I'm expressing ideas emerged during a random conversation in an online forum. Not a work developed in years of study and practice of that model. Not a refined product to sell.

We can stop here. Amen.

Andy · October 16

@andang76 said:

I'm wondering if anyone else is reading this exchange of ideas (which is very valuable to me)

I have been away for some weeks, but I just now skimmed the discussion above. On the issue of photography, I am reminded of what I said to @GeoEng51 last month in a comment about a disanalogy between aerial photos and granularity of knowledge: from the position of the human viewer of the photograph (not the photographer), the photo is uninterpreted visual data, not the kind of knowledge (interpreted conceptual structures/systems) that we put in our ZK. (By the way, we could include cinematography, video production, in the analysis as well. Most digital cameras today can record videos as well as photos.)

I was reminded of the book description of Luciano Floridi's book The Logic of Information: A Theory of Philosophy as Conceptual Design (Oxford UP, 2019), which uses the contrast between photography versus conceptual knowledge:

Luciano Floridi presents an innovative approach to philosophy, conceived as conceptual design. He explores how we make, transform, refine, and improve the objects of our knowledge. His starting point is that reality provides the data, to be understood as constraining affordances, and we transform them into information, like semantic engines. Such transformation or repurposing is not equivalent to portraying, or picturing, or photographing, or photocopying anything. It is more like cooking: the dish does not represent the ingredients, it uses them to make something else out of them, yet the reality of the dish and its properties hugely depend on the reality and the properties of the ingredients. Models are not representations understood as pictures, but interpretations understood as data elaborations, of systems.

(Contra that last sentence, I tend to define representation more broadly in a way that includes conceptual models, but Floridi's point is clear enough in context.)

Photographers use conceptual (and other kinds of) knowledge when they create photos. But for the viewer, a photo is uninterpreted visual data upon which the viewer has to perform cognitive operations to extract conceptual knowledge. Photographers who wish to communicate a specific message (i.e. who are visual communication designers) therefore have to know to how reduce the ambiguity in the visual data they are producing, using the kind of principles to which @andang76 alluded above, in the example of documenting lions. This is similar to what we do when we communicate using speech or writing, but it is dissimilar enough that using one mode of communication as an analogy for the other can obscure as much as it reveals.

To reach a "level 4" understanding of the relation between photography and writing, you need models that are general enough to explain both of them, and you can find such models in semiotics, which studies types of signs and systemic cognitive operations with signs.¹

An example that comes to mind is how Frederik Stjernfelt, elaborating on the semiotics of C. S. Peirce, showed how diagrammatic reasoning operations are involved in two Peircean types of signs: (1) icons and (2) symbols. See: Frederik Stjernfelt (2007). "Moving pictures of thought: diagrams as centerpiece of a Peircean epistemology". In: Diagrammatology: An Investigation on the Borderlines of Phenomenology, Ontology, and Semiotics (pp. 89–116). Dordrecht; London: Springer. I don't know what is the best general textbook on semiotics today. ↩︎

andang76 · October 16

@Andy said:
@andang76 said:

I'm wondering if anyone else is reading this exchange of ideas (which is very valuable to me)

I have been away for some weeks, but I just now skimmed the discussion above. On the issue of photography, I am reminded of what I said to @GeoEng51 last month in a comment about a disanalogy between aerial photos and granularity of knowledge: from the position of the human viewer of the photograph (not the photographer), the photo is uninterpreted visual data, not the kind of knowledge (interpreted conceptual structures/systems) that we put in our ZK. (By the way, we could include cinematography, video production, in the analysis as well. Most digital cameras today can record videos as well as photos.)

I have to rush out and I only noticed this little piece. I’m writing immediately, otherwise I’ll lose the thought.
Your observation about the photography seen from an external observer is correct, but for me the same principle applies to written notes.
I consider one of my own written notes a true zettel, while a note written by Luhman, a fragment of text. Information to reprocess. There could be the same asimmetry.
A photo, for the photographer themselves, is equivalent to a zettel.
Photography and writing are both ways of fixing into a permant support what primarily resides in our head, and both language; I’m not sure if they are exactly equally powerful, but at least of the same order of magnitude. final form could be considered and transfered as information, but during the process at least one mind (the author's) is involved, two if that image is shared with another one.

I’ll read the rest tonight :-)

Andy · October 16

@andang76 said:

A photo, for the photographer themselves, is equivalent to a zettel.

If a zettel is just a paper card or slip with some marks on it, then yes, a small printed photo really is equivalent to a zettel. I don't see any point in trying to argue against that.

If a zettel is a knowledge atom, a fundamental element of a level-3-and-above conceptual system with types of knowledge building blocks, then you would have to do more work to show that such types exist for photos, and that your photos conform to such types and combine to form a system. I think that this perhaps could be shown, but I am not sure of it. I guess that the types of atoms would be different for photos because photos are not symbols in the usual (e.g. Peircean) semiotic sense unless they are (unusually) being used as such. There are photos that are uninterpretable by anyone and that therefore could not possibly be zettels in this sense, whereas if someone writes just a single word, that is already interpretable as a symbol by anyone who has learned that word.

andang76 · October 16

@Andy said:
@andang76 said:

A photo, for the photographer themselves, is equivalent to a zettel.

If a zettel is just a paper card or slip with some marks on it, then yes, a small printed photo really is equivalent to a zettel. I don't see any point in trying to argue against that.

If a zettel is a knowledge atom, a fundamental element of a level-3-and-above conceptual system with types of knowledge building blocks, then you would have to do more work to show that such types exist for photos, and that your photos conform to such types and combine to form a system. I think that this perhaps could be shown, but I am not sure of it. I guess that the types of atoms would be different for photos because photos are not symbols in the usual (e.g. Peircean) semiotic sense unless they are (unusually) being used as such. There are photos that are uninterpretable by anyone and that therefore could not possibly be zettels in this sense, whereas if someone writes just a single word, that is already interpretable as a symbol by anyone who has learned that word.

Oh, yes, of course.
It’s a long journey.

I’ve sketched out several reflections (some of which I had already made in the past), and I’ve found a number of ideas that caught my attention — including those you highlighted.

At this point, my reflections lead me to believe that some “types” belong to both models, while others seem new or different.
For those I feel are present in both, I mainly suspect that it’s actually me, not a photographer, who perceives them that way, since I’m projecting my own experience as a Zettelkasten practitioner onto them. But I think it’s quite likely that a photographer aims for the same kind of outcomes (for instance, "discovering or showing a derived truth" is a common goal for a professional). If I manage to talk to a photographer, and they say, “I learned it like this / let me explain it this way,” and I recognize the same structure I use in the Zettelkasten — that’s interesting; but if they’ve internalized it in a completely different way, that’s even more interesting.
Right now, I enjoy developing thoughts across all three scenarios:

I see, in a photographer’s work, a potential model (pattern/model/mental model—thes could take different forms) that I use myself (but which they might not use at all);
a photographer uses exactly the same model that I use;
a photographer uses a model specific to photography to achieve the same kind of goal I have.

I find all three hypotheses fascinating, and I’m certain that a photographer doesn’t “shoot randomly” if they have a purpose.

Regarding your last point, I can add that photo still can use a private purpose.
I believe that both a zettel (and a photo) should have, as a very strict requirement, the quality of being consistently meaningful at least to its author.
If it isn’t interpretable even by its creator, it’s useless and should be discarded.
Being readable by others is a requirement of a public system (which, for instance, mine is not).
I assume that interpretability by the author is always a given; otherwise, that note or photo is something not worth keeping at all.
But of course, as you pointed out, even a photo with no meaning for a public should be discarded, if that photo was intended for the public.
Another thing that I can add regarding this aspect, often it's not a matter of the single photo, but the complete work (the entire set), the purpose of that work, and the inner state of author and viewer.
For example, if two civil engineers exchange a photo of a small crack in a wall, it could be very meaningful to them, whereas I would almost certainly find it meaningless — I wouldn’t know how to interpret it. It’s true that some photos might not be immediately readable, but the real difference could lie in the context of reference or in how they are interpreted as part of a set of photos.

Most of my (limited) photographic knowledge, unfortunately, has long since faded.
To do serious work, I’d have to relearn photography — or rather, become really skilled in it.
Doing an acceptable work probably exceeds the time I have available, but in full bottom-up Zettelkasten spirit, if I develop ideas along the way, I’ll collect them — one at a time.
Even if no complete theory comes out of it, that doesn’t matter much: I’m already noticing that the journey itself is worthwhile.

andang76 · October 16

@Andy said:

Photographers use conceptual (and other kinds of) knowledge when they create photos. But for the viewer, a photo is uninterpreted visual data upon which the viewer has to perform cognitive operations to extract conceptual knowledge. Photographers who wish to communicate a specific message (i.e. who are visual communication designers) therefore have to know to how reduce the ambiguity in the visual data they are producing, using the kind of principles to which @andang76 alluded above, in the example of documenting lions. This is similar to what we do when we communicate using speech or writing, but it is dissimilar enough that using one mode of communication as an analogy for the other can obscure as much as it reveals.

To reach a "level 4" understanding of the relation between photography and writing, you need models that are general enough to explain both of them, and you can find such models in semiotics, which studies types of signs and systemic cognitive operations with signs.[^Stjernfelt]

Yes. My first purpose could be understanding how the photographer's mind work, and how translates his ideas to images.
Having done this, I could consider the common things I find in both photographer and zettelkasten (not the all photographer model), in order to create a “common shared model”; then, if there is something useful that could be transferred from one to the other, trying this; and not least the relevant differences, to better understand the limits and peculiarities of all the tools at play and to avoid distortions.

One of the many peculiarites that emerges quite clearly is exactly the one you indicated.
A single photo could be either barely interpretable or, on the contrary, multi-meaning (polysemous, in english?). For example, a photo of a lion eating a gazelle could literally mean “the lion is eating the gazelle,” (a fact, maybe) or “the lion’s typical prey is the gazelle,” or “the lion is carnivorous.” This is an aspect that the photographer must anticipate, guiding the correct interpretation by placing the photo in a broader context.

That apparently silly example about lions has much to say.
A newly taken and observed lion photograph could generate the intuition to go look for the next shot, something unplanned.
Another interesting thing is that the experience gained during shooting and evaluating photos tends to teach the photographer themselves how to move and act more effectively in order to capture better shots. Photographer has to align his behaviour to the animal behaviour during the work. So, taking photos over time influences the process itself. It’s something similar to a double feedback loop. For me, these are very interesting aspects to grasp.
How a photographer has internalized things like "how do I effectively capture the essential behaviour of a wild animal with a bunch of shot, in a sound way?" is one of my many questions to answer. That answer has a form, still don't know why, but it exists. I already take into account that it might be something we already know, but who knows.
An internalization could be: 'I need to capture what it eats, how it reproduces, how it communicates, the male/female/offspring dimorphism, his hideouts.' It could be this schematic (I don’t think so trivial form), or it could be an open model, or definitely more sophisticated.

Sascha · 6:35AM

@andang76 said:
Are you convinced that photography doesn’t deal with knowledge? That taking photographs is purely an exercise of eyes and fingers?

This seems like a straw man to me. Saying that photography isn't a framework for first principles of knowledge doesn't imply that it is mindless.

Photography doesn't deal with knowledge, or it would be the philosophy of knowledge, the aesthetics of knowledge, the ethics of knowledge, etc.

Photography deals with a certain visual art.

There is knowledge that can be visualised, there is knowledge on how to visualise, etc. But that doesn't mean that photography is aiming at knowledge itself, which would be necessary to reach level 3, going to first principles.

Think about me trying to argue that boxing is a framework to reach level 3 of photography. Instead of ratios, focus, backdrop and such terms, I am insisting that I can think from first principles to create photos by jabs, blocks and side-steps.

The whole point of level 3 is leaving heuristics behind and directly address what you are working with. This is why it is analytically impossible for photography providing a level 3 framework for knowledge (as said above two times) and vice versa.

Photography is surely a good source for supporting concepts to the first principles. It may be a great source on how to present knowledge. But unless anyone can show that photography deals with the first principles of knowledge, you can't reach level 3 understanding for knowledge.

@Andy made a very good point:

To reach a "level 4" understanding of the relation between photography and writing, you need models that are general enough to explain both of them, and you can find such models in semiotics, which studies types of signs and systemic cognitive operations with signs.

The levels are based on a rough scale for understanding:

Level 1: Surface level understanding that doesn't provide any rational, which can be either naive (not knowing that you don't know) or conscious (understanding the other levels, but ultimately saying that this knowledge is not relevant to achieve the desired outcome)
Level 2: Heuristics that increase the likelihood of good outcomes happen, but not understanding the matter itself. (me in Chess: I know that I have to occupy the centre of the board and roughly know why, but I have no idea what the actual reasons are in terms of chess)
Level 3: Addressing the first principles. E.g. Treating bacteria with antibiotics, instead of exorcism, value investing instead of buying what moves up, capturing knowledge building blocks instead writing short notes, throwing jabs to occupy the right hand instead of throwing "good combinations", turning the hip instead of hooking like a boxer and not Wing Chung (true example).
Level 4: Being aware of the levels and solving problems by integrating them.

This is why @Andy's point was very good. He addressed the first principles on how to bridge the gap between two domains.

That’s not a problem for me.
We simply start from two different visions of that world.
Photography is a language, is a way of modeling world, has models, photos have meanings, they can express interpretation of reality, author feelings, and even both in the same frame.

Sure. Nobody is denying that.

Honestly, I don’t understand the arrogance of a post like that.

I don't see any arrogance, since I don't put any value judgement on you or me.

I am just baffled that you are insisting on the idea that photography holds an alternative set of concepts that could be an alternative to concepts that are specifically aimed at what we are dealing with: knowledge.

I don't know the reason why you are not addressing the individual points I am making. So, I think we are talking past each other.

I’m not attacking the proposal you presented. I’m not invalidating it.
Your value is safe.

Never assumed that.

I’m trying to have a conversation to see if something else interesting might emerge.
If it annoys you, I’m sorry; for me, it was still useful, and I remain happy.

I am not annoyed with that. Rather, I am impatient, because I make points that you don't care to address. But this would be necessary for collaborative thinking. So, I get the impression that you aren't in the mode of collaborative thinking.

andang76 · 7:34AM

@Sascha said:

@andang76 said:

Photography deals with a certain visual art.

You have absolutely no idea what photography is (this statement makes it clear), yet at the same time you presume to know its limits. That’s enough for me. I won’t read and write any more posts on the subject. I'm wasting my time.

I can suggest that you apply first principles thinking to understand photography, instead of just talking about it. And if you’ve already done that and these are the results, you might want to reconsider its effectiveness.

Sascha · 7:47AM

@andang76 said:

@Sascha said:

@andang76 said:

Photography deals with a certain visual art.

You have absolutely no idea what photography is (this statement makes it clear), yet at the same time you presume to know its limits. That’s enough for me. I won’t read and write any more posts on the subject. I'm wasting my time.

Then please point me to a source that help me out of my ignorance.

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